kewald: I'm w/you. When woodworkers let folks have their fine pieces (and there are a LOT out there) at Walmart or even furniture store (manufactured) prices, it hurts all of us.
peabody: compare your piece to a similiar manufactured piece. Quality in workmanship, materials, finish? Uniqueness? Special design? If it is JUST a table, you need to price it competitive w/mfrd furniture prices. If it is a table that has added value because YOU made it, it should be priced accordingly. Communicate that added value. Sell yourself too, not just the plain table. Now, I'll bet your mother values that table several times higher than anyone else. Your challenge is to find ways to add value to your future pieces (including selling yourself) to encourage higher profits when selling to clients. Good luck.

 

I've had a beautiful custom designed, spiral walking cane for sale in my shop for two years. Despite many enthusiastic comments and assurances of returns to buy, It was still mine until yesterday when a dear friend told me he would love to have one of my canes.
I gave him this piece and his reaction was priceless. I'm happy that it happened that way. His gratitude is better than the money I might have made.
Now, I don't mean to say that we should all give our work away. That's no way to make a living. All artists should be paid a fair price for their work. So should those who aren't practicing Art. But the pricing IS different. A carpenter working in building construction is usually getting an hourly wage.
An Artist, especially one whose medium is wood, most often doesn't have an employment arragement and has to bear all the costs of his work, his living and the burdens associated with getting paid for his work.
So, the pricing MUST be higher than the cost of the material plus an hourly wage if the Artist has no other source of income.
If he is doing it as a hobbyist, he can charge whatever he wants to or whatever the traffic will bear. His main income source will pay for his cost of living and he doesn't have to maintain business facilities.
Thank heaven, I no longer have to deal with those issues, so I can enjoy to the full the wonderful, ecstatic response from my friend who needed a cane and got a beautiful black walnut Art Object to use.
Well, I believe its Art!

 

I posted a new bowl a few minutes ago and invite you all to suggest pricing.

 

taid has a great idea for a new thread heading where we put in projects and take comments/suggestions on pricing, .... hoping no one gets offended by well meant lower prices.

 

Hi Peabody
No one will ever love it more then mother, that was a good choice to give it to her
You are young and you have lots of time.
I'm 70 and one of my main regrets in life is I didn't do what I'm telling you, I just worked for the money, not quality. I love Sam Maloof work and what he did with his life. My hart sinks a little when I see some of his fine work.

It's called building a business, if you are out to sell a few things, just fuelling around that different.
If you won't to build a business it doesn't matter how you start, you just need to stay afloat. Start building some quality thing and after a while people will start paying you more then you think they are worth. It may take years, so you need to love it.
Sorry, just an old man thoughts

 

I thank you for the comments made on pricing my most recent bowl. If you're interested, I put my way of pricing and the outcome as a comment on the bowl site. Thanks again. I'm high if you think of it as just a salad bowl and low if you call it art, but I started doing this at about 65 and have been selling for four years at craft shows and my goal is to cover all my costs and keep buying exotic woods so I can keep making more bowls.

 

I struggle with this each and every time I make a piece for someone. I only do this part time so I don't keep track of the time I put into a project. Cost of material X 2 or 4 is easy. (I double the cost of material, btw)

The Cocobolo Jewelry box I made (see project list) was for a coworker of my wife's who ordered it for her Mom. Because I know the family, I didn't want to charge too much and I knew the person ordering doesn't make a pile of money so I purposely kept my asking price in a range she would find comfortable. When she came to pick up, cheque book in hand, she asked "How much?" I jokingly told her a crazy price and she started writing so I had to stop her and told her the real price which was much less, of course.

So, the question is, was she completely trusting and willing to pay because she knew I wouldn't rip her off or was it really worth the 'joke' price?

I've made a few things for people outside my immediate family and you know damn well they're thinking "I can buy that at (store name) for much less than what this joker is asking. Hmmmmmmm, a machine that punches out thousands of these in a day made from compressed sawdust or by a craftsman who produces the same thing but in their workshop pouring themselves into the project from wood they have carefully picked out and shaped and manipulated until it is exactly how they envisioned it would be when they first laid eyes on the plan or put pencil to paper to start designing.

Toughest part of this is trying to figure out how much my time is worth to someone else…..

 

Don, it would seem to me your client on the box was going to pay the price you were originally asking because it probally would feel akward for them to "haggle" on a price where friendship is involved.

Since you are a part timer, it may be a little difficult to know what your "shop rate" is. When I was a part timer, I was building stuff to sell just so I could buy more lumber and materials. Plus I was using it as an education, you know, trying out different assembly methods, new ways of staining, etc.

Now being a full timer, I figure in my shop overhead, gas for the truck, all the misc supplies (sandpaper, glue, etc), then I kinda do a local survey to see what other door rates are. I also take into account the big box stores (they are competition).
Basicallly down here in central Texas the door rate is $25.00- $35.00 per hour.
So when I bid a job I figure the hours to do the job, materials with a 25 percent markup, and then if delivery is involved I figure gas, etc.

Then I figure a "fudge factor". This could be anything from -
Is there going to be repeat buisiness with this client?
Can I sell them on upgrades? IE: Wine rack, pullout drawers in the pantry, slideouts under the sink Etc.
Or is this customer going to be very picky?

I use this "fudge factor" to raise or lower my bid to compensate for the client.

So I guess the bottom line for me is that there is no set formula for giving an accurate bid.

Cabinet Maker magazine does a yearly bid survey. They take three different size cabinet jobs and ask their readers to submit bids. WOW- you talk about a huge variation in numbers.

All in all, I think you have to price your stuff with a number that you are going to be happy with. And that you think the client is going to be happy with.

Good luck !
Dave

 

Hey Dave, thanks for the response….

Perfect example of what I am facing and I'm sure this is not unique to me. A co-worker has asked me to make him a liquor/wine cabinet. After a series of questions and pictures of what he was looking for, we had it set in our minds exactly waht it was he was looking for. Price range was a bit loose but I had a ballpark figure to work with. Wood choice was a bit tough but it came down to either Cherry or Santos Mahogany and finally to Cherry. Good choice as it's 'on sale' right now for $5.95/bf. Cherry and Cherry plywood would come out to just over $500, add in an estimate for hardware and a 10% fudge factor. Twice the cost of materials and I gave him a discounted price of $1200. It turned out to be outside his price range so I am now looking at Oak for him.

Yes it drops the price of materials but at the same time, if I want to make a decent profit, I have to abandon my 'materials X 2' formula and mess around with the numbers. If not, I'm doing the same amount of work for less money.

The two pictures will give you a pretty good idea of what I am going to build for him. As a part timer, the length of time I take to do the job is stretched as I can only put in 1 - 2 hours/night (perhaps) and weekends.

Thoughts/comments?

 

Don, too many times I have heard "if you can get your wood free, you wouldn't have to charge much, right?" To which I may respond: "not really. Selecting and arranging the wood, initial cost of tools and setting up a shop, and painstaking labor, account for most of the cost."

I believe in just these two pics you show a portfolio deserving professional level rating. Part time has nothing to do with it.

I suggest you keep your price of $1200 (if you are really okay with that) and subtract only the reduced wood costs. Nothing else changes. If anything, it may be MORE time consuming to get drawer and door panels to match well if less expensive wood is use. And what about all those hours you have already angonized over this job. Somebody has suggested asking the person you are discounting for to bring you a new client as consideration. I'm going to try that, and try to make it a serious discussion. Darned if you do and darned if you don't…..

I've said it before, if I sell at discount, I have to spend time making another piece with the hope of finally turning a real profit. If I'm busy meeting commitments at discounted prices, I may miss a more profitable job. Marketing is tough! and it's not free.

Wishing you the best!

 

Thanks Keith….

The two pieces above aren't what I have already but what I am about to do. The bottom one is taken from Wood magazine which has the plans in it, ready to go. I only used the pics as examples and perhaps a pricing estimate.

This is the part of woodworking I agonize over…..sigh

 

I'd like to throw my hat into the ring because I have a similar dilemma, I have a day job but over time I have built something for friends and family. I am sure I am giving them a break because I am such a fantastically nice guy But as word gets out my client base is growing outside my close circle of friends and family and I am less likely to give the 'others' the same break.

If I apply my day-job experiences then I come up with some factors/rules:
1. Charge for all materials, for example if I use 5 boards of 3bdFt to get a total of 12bdFt of usable lumber charge for the 15bdFt, chances are the extra 3bdFt are scrap or blemishes that won't be recovered in other projects.
2. Honestly account for all time expended, not just sweat-time, this includes design and other productive time like prototyping and consultation.
3. Add a percentage factor to each time and materials to cover overhead like glue and fasteners or time for paperwork. I think %20 for each is reasonable.

So the formula might look like: Price=(1.2 x Materials)+(1.2 x Hours xHourlyRate)

So what do ya'll think… over simplified or over complicated or right on?

 

Question…..

For a full timer who is able to accurately estimate how much time is required to complete a project, a formula that includes an hourly rate makes sense but for a part timer who mainly does work for a close circle of friends and family and doesn't really keep track of time spent in his/her own little corner of Heaven called the workshop, things become a little foggy.

How do I make that hourly rate make sense when I don't know how long it will take me? Do I just guess and hope it all works out or is that what the 'fudge factor' accounts for if it takes me longer?

Keeping in mind that I am a part timer, can anyone estimate how long it would take to do one of the cabinets I posted above to give me a ballpark figure? 30 - 40 hrs? 45 - 50 hours?

Last edit: 45 bf oak or cherry + 1 4×8 sheet 1/4" + 2 4×8 sheet 3/4" + hardware etc

 

It is hard to tell how much time any project will take. Time is based on experience, efficency, methods of construction and shop set-up. As a cabinet job, I see no more than two full days of work, 16-20 hrs. Which is what your friends budget probably affords. For a cadillac furniture buffet, I still feel that is no more than a 40 hr piece. That is me though. Just because it takes someone twice as long to do something, that doesn't mean its twice as good. Your doing this for fun, a little extra coin and to build your reputation/portfolio. Charge what you feel its worth for you to have a project to do. Get paid in cash in my only suggestion for part-time hobby woodworkers. I also think 45bdf is short for materials, don't forget drawer box wood.

 

Good points and some I didn't consider.

As far as time and experience go, I still consider myself to be a beginner in this wonderful world of woodworking. I guess that would account for the 45 - 50 hours extimate to allow for a slow poke like me to work through it but is it fair to charge for my learning curve? Probably not. His budget isn't really based on anything other than available cash right now.I'd rather have a repeat customer who can recommend me to others that walk away from one job with a fistful of dollars….

 

I'm just glad to see I am not the only one who has trouble decideing on a fair price. Like the idea of pricing on LJ's as a test, If i can steal something away from the shop before my family gets it.

 

I used to do well with taking the cost of all and I mean all materials used (include anything you used even if it was a left over from another project, or towels, or glue or…) and multiply by 3. This is not always perfect but it is a good place to start. Remember, you can always go down but rarely come up on your price…

 

All very interesting thoughts. Thanks to all. Now I have to put all that in a blender (a wooden one of course) and make my own concoction that's right for me and what I make . . . knowing that if I priced them too high, I get the enjoyment of looking at them. If I priced them too low, I may be kicking myself for not pricing them higher! ? ! ? So, I'm more inclined to set a hourly rate for what my time is worth, each project would take, cost of material and a reasonable profit margin. And if it doesn't sell, I would not feel that I've over-priced it. It would be a fair price, at least to me. But I definitely agree that under-pricing any project would be devaluing and hurting all other wood workers. I also agree that we should not disclose material cost to any would-be buyers. I don't think one can put a price on "art". That's something only the buying public and time will determine.

 

While there are a number of time-honoured fomulas written for the purpose of accurately rendering a fair price for a given article, I prefer the dictate of ripping their wallets out of their pants so hard that their a$$e$ hurt for a week.

 

I think priceing is a problem for everyone some of my pieces take a lot of time if i charge for all that time it would never sell matterials +25% works time is the problem i like to compair price by doing research on line and looking at others work if they are selling then you go from there

 

Rich (above) hit it. There are three things to consider:

-What it costs
-What you think it's worth
-What you think someone will actually pay

Strike a happy balance between these three to hit your price point. If the item(s) move, it's proven to be within marketable range.

 

The 2.5 rule works for me, Material + labor + overhead X 2.5 The 2.5 is your profit after expenses.

 

I just shudder at giving that away for 1,200. Not being a stranger to working my butt off, only to line the pockets of another with money that I threw at them…………..so I have learned lessons the hard way.

Sometimes it's best, to just politely walk away. Often the potential client is just calling your "bluff" , perhaps trying to take advantage of you and the economic climate in your area, but eventually, when they realize that 1,200 is a STEAL……….they come back. At that price, I would ask for 1/2 down, the balance on delivery so this way, the most you could loose is your labour ?

best of luck to you

 

to answer the original question.

You say your in high school so I am safe to say that you shouldnt charge what more experienced turner would charge ?

So count your hours (guesstimate) allot a wage that would reasonable for a person your age, your area, add that hourly sum, then add the cost of material, add a fair sum for the use a shop…….and theres your answer.

Bare in mind that turning is an awesome, very popular hobby enjoyed by many professional men and women who sell their wares for pennies as it is their passion, not their livelihood, which in many ways, makes it difficult for those who want to earn a living, using a lathe. In short, the sum of money you added up, then divide by 2.

We all have to start somewhere

Cheers

 

When you count the hours, the wear on tools and supplies, you really can't get what it's worth unless you are okay with making below minimum wage, lol.