photos and specifics would help … brands as well.. many products are not compatible , and concoctions are a definite invitation for disaster .

 

Most if not all film finishes will adhere
well over shellac.

 

Hey Charles thanks so much for your reply!! I can't for the for the life of me figure out how to post photos here… sorry about that.

I used equal parts McCloskeys spar, Finico Unpolymerized 100% Tung Oil, and Finico citrus solvent. About 3 coats worth of this in a wipe off and hand buff style finish. Truly a fantastic in the wood finish - just no good for any heavy wear!

 

Loren: the finish was not over top of shellac. Are you actually saying that shellac will adhere over this finish? Or am I not understanding your reply?

 

I don't have any advice but I'm curious to see what the answer is to this; it doesn't make sense to me that you couldn't apply poly over tung oil once the tung oil has cured, that's basically a wiping varnish with a topcoat of poly. I imagine that the problem probably is the tung oil which is notoriously slow to dry.

 

Shellac is often used as a barrier coat
between incompatible finishes. Shellac
will probably cure over what you have
on the wood and from there another
finish can be put over the shellac. I've
never used anything but stain and poly
on floors but I haven't had anything like
the problem you're having.

That unpolymerized tung oil may be
your culprit. Some of those tung oil
finishes can take a long time to cure.

 

I can't recommend a fix but I use Bona for any wood floors of mine.

 

Manitario: So yes it was unpolymerized Tung oil but it's been over a year so curing isn't the issue. The oil blend is an in-the-wood finish so is that wherein the problem lies? ( Ie. Total contamination of the wood surface and below surface with oil, resulting in bond failure??) Or am I talking out my **s?!

.. Then I tried to top coat it with Arm-R-seal urethane - was that yet another error? No using poly but a urethane instead?

So the question is what product will adhere to the floor now?... I can go over it again lightly with 120 grit or 80 grit to give it some tooth (the surface is now low sheen and flat but likely still with below grain oil contamination)

Loren: I can pick up a gallon zinsser dewaxed shellac and get that down on the surface if you think that will work. Then would something like varathane oil poly over top be the ticket??

 

Loren: I can pick up a gallon zinsser dewaxed shellac and get that down on the surface if you think that will work. Then would something like varathane oil poly over top be the ticket??

- Rustyempire

Yes. That would be the theory. If I were
you I would do some more research and make
sure my suggested approach makes sense.
The idea is just from information I picked up
from years of reading about woodworking,
not something I've personally done.

 

Manitario: So yes it was unpolymerized Tung oil but it s been over a year so curing isn t the issue. The oil blend is an in-the-wood finish so is that wherein the problem lies? ( Ie. Total contamination of the wood surface and below surface with oil, resulting in bond failure??) Or am I talking out my **s?!

- Rustyempire

How did you care for it over the course of the year? Did you use any floor wax that might have contained silicone, or other contaminants?

 

Thanks Rich: Nope. No cleaners just a damp rag when needed. So that can't be the culprit here.

Oh and I found the link to my post last year when finishing the floor. My first install ever! Herringbone design with border… not bad for a chick huh? Too bad it didn't need stay looking like that! The picture doesn't do it justice but the oilf finish is almost luminous. I'd love to try it on a surface that doesn't get as much wear down the road.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/180370

 

Thanks Rich: Nope. No cleaners just a damp rag when needed. So that can t be the culprit here.

- Rustyempire

That's a good thing, then. It sounds like what Loren is saying is a good way to go. I'd try to find an area to test on, rather than doing the whole floor, until you have a method that works.

 

Yah Rich. It seems that is the only option here from the online traffic response so far.
I guess testing makes sense rather than jumping in with both feet as I am somewhat apt to do! (Finishing ADD perhaps?) & thanks for your much appreciated time today!

 

Shellac is a very hard and brittle finish, I'm not sure I would want it between 2 soft finishes on a floor. That said, I'm not sure what the solution would be at this point, you might want to wait for Charles to chime back in. If you do go with the shellac, please do test it first.

 

If it were me, I would "completely" strip the floor and then let it dry. With all the junk that is put on it, I would not put anything else on it. You need to start from the beginning. I am not certain how to do that with all the oils that have soaked into the Wood.

I would never try something new on a big project or any project. Always try a new finish on trial boards. Even if it takes a long time to run a trial, it saves time, money and aggravation later on.

I have never understood why people come up with these schemes for finishing. For your benefit, the person I would trust the most is Charles Neil. I hope that he can help you. I do not think any solution will be quick and easy.

 

Sounds like the unpolymerized tung oil never cured under the varnish. I would try applying heat, hairdryer, to get the oil and wood warm to get more of the oil to weep out and then wipe off. Not sure of the best solvent for the tung oil. I would not apply anything else over the floor until the weeping stopped. I'm with Fred - I wouldnt use shellac on a floor for the reasons stated. That original oil needs to dry out.

 

All those points taken!
Yep, I should test first. Especially if trying the shellac prior to poly.
Yep, I shouldn't have used an oil/varnish blend on a floor (elsewhere yes but not the floor) However I think I did state that at the beginning of the post, so give me some credit there.
And (oil vey!) yep, I'm likely going to have to strip the sodding floor again.. #

it
Not what I was hoping to hear, but likely what needs to happen.

The only other option I can think of is reformulating the oil/varnish blend and applying it again (without Spar but regular varnish) and adjusting the original proportions to something with less oil in the mix and more varnish. (My hope was for a easy to repair finish that was in the wood instead of a plastic like surface). I'm guessing that won't be a popular option for the same reasons as before - it's not a durable finish.

 

As Loren says, shellac will stick to the oils, and you will be able to put any finish over that. Might take multiple (thin) coats of shellac, but it's pretty easy to see if it's sealed the surface or not. I would use a 2# cut, and expect to need a minimum of three thin coats to seal it up. Maybe start with a 1# cut for the very first coat to get a little better penetration, but you will be there forever trying to seal with anything less than a 2# cut.

It's not a floor, but my butter dish had similar problems with epoxy not curing over linseed oil (food-safe, no metal driers) and it took multiple coats of shellac to provide a good barrier so I could get a solid epoxy coat down that would cure (I think I did eight coats with a 1# cut and three with a 2# cut, both of platina dewaxed shellac). Not sure what you'll want to use for your final finish, but once you get a good seal with the shellac, anything will stick to that.

 

I really think you need to solve/fix the underlying problem before putting anything more on top.

 

Do i understand that the tung oil has been on the floor for over a year ?

 

Charles: yes the floor was finished last year.

 

Dave P: I sooo appreciate you weighing in!

I can wrap my head around putting down a thinned coat of dewaxed shellac - but as an amateur here my likely solution is buying a gallon of zinsser dewaxed. I have no idea about #2 vs #3 cut (?n!!) here. How can I achieve that? By diluting the zinsser with mineral spirits or denatured alcohol? And using what formula?

However if you have a link that would direct this newbie on the procedure to follow (if buying raw shellac flakes) I can make an attempt to mix my own -with some direction on how to do so (ie #2 cut formula? #3 cut formula) these shellac flakes are utterly new and unfamiliar to me… but I'm willing to learn!

 

A 1# (one-pound) cut is one pound of shellac flakes in a gallon of alcohol. 2# cut is two pounds of flakes in a gallon. Here's a chart if you have problems with math.

I think Zinsser is a 2# cut so you would dilute it 50-50 with denatured alcohol (not mineral spirits) to make a 1# cut. That will be very thin and will wick into pores and penetrate fairly well. But it's also thin enough that a second coat will dissolve the first coat a little, so you don't want to brush back and forth, just brush it on and walk away. And it'll take a lot of coats to build a surface that will seal.

ShellacShack (that I linked to in my previous post) includes good directions with the flakes (but mixing is pretty easy - grind the flakes if you're in a hurry, dissolve in alcohol, shake for 15-30 seconds every five minutes until everything is dissolved, then let it sit another 5-10 minutes), and if you call they can help you estimate how much you'll need to get coverage. My use is all small-scale, so I'm used to thinking in ounces per square-inch, not quarts per square foot (like you'll need). Sorry.

The nice thing about shellac is that it dries by evaporating the alcohol, so a coat every 15-20 minutes is possible. You should be able to build a surface pretty quickly. And if you decide to remove it, alcohol will pull it up (and clean the brushes).

Good luck! And if Charles has more to say, listen to him. I'm a rookie, and he's a veteran.

 

First of all, ash is deep grained and like a sponge .. so it probably soaked up a lot of the tung oil …and even though a year , i doubt it is really dry.. pure oils just dont cure all that well, especially if pooled in deep grain wood and when they do they are about chewing gum.
If it were me , I would go about getting off as much finish as possible , scrub with mineral spirits, and a scotch bright, if that doesnt work as a last resort ..lacquer thinner … but the fumes will be horrible and its really flammable , so be super careful and lots and lots of ventilation .
another alternative i am thinking about is , once you have as much of the finish off as possible , mix some japan drier (most hardware stores have it ) with some mineral spirits and wet the floor down, let soak a bit and wipe back, give it a few days , hopefully the drier will soak into any remaining tung oil and harden it .

HOWEVER .. before all this , i would again get as much off as possible , then do a test spot using just a wiped on and let soak and wipe off of Arm R Seal.. and see if it will dry , to where you can do a light sand and it will powder.
If so , then you are home free, it should also mingle with any of the tung oil and hopefully harden it as well .
Once you have a hard dry surface then pretty much any good floor finish would work.

I cant stress enough how mixing stuff like this is flirting with disaster, especially using the raw and pure oils … these days they just dont really have a place, there are so many great oils and finishes.. what risk it .

Using a soft finish under a harder one NEVER works…

LET ME ADD … if you can sand the floor as is and it powders, we may be able to go another route ..please advise .

as a reference https://www.walmart.com/ip/WM-Barr-PJD40-Japan-Drier-Additive-1-pt-Can-Liquid/23232844?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1210&adid=22222222227039455984&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=85600790930&wl4=aud-310687321602la-193724133410&wl5=9008307&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112353941&wl11=online&wl12=23232844&wl13=&veh=sem

 

The japan drier mixed with ms is a great idea - get the drying agent mixed with the original oil to get it to dry.