What is your opinion of tools that are Made in China?
PineChopper
Made in China
If the Chinese products are made properly they can be good tools but many are made as inexpensive as possible and the products are usually inferior to US or other countries products. If I have my choice I would prefer to buy American made products.
That's a little too general a question in my opinion. Not everything made in China is junk (though a lot of people would like you to think that). In fact, a lot of the tools you buy from major manufacturers are now produced in China or other countries that many people regard as producing junk.
If you're instead meaning, "What do you think about cheaply-made, seemingly inferior tools?" Then I actually have an opinion on that. I don't buy them unless I need them for one or two things and don't mind them being destroyed or being essentially disposable. I don't need every one of my tools to be a top-of-the-line, "built to last several lifetimes" investment.
Since I turn a lot of wrenches, I often have a supply of cheap sockets and wrenches that I use for banging on, heating and bending, and building custom tools with (by cutting and welding).
If you're instead meaning, "What do you think about cheaply-made, seemingly inferior tools?" Then I actually have an opinion on that. I don't buy them unless I need them for one or two things and don't mind them being destroyed or being essentially disposable. I don't need every one of my tools to be a top-of-the-line, "built to last several lifetimes" investment.
Since I turn a lot of wrenches, I often have a supply of cheap sockets and wrenches that I use for banging on, heating and bending, and building custom tools with (by cutting and welding).
I generally only buy namebrand tools when it comes to power tools, and generally try to stay as far away from HF as possible, but as the same time, I really have to agree with Doss, if I need to make a tool or known that I'm going to be abusing a tool to the point of destroying it, I generally go with the cheaper alternatives and use them til they are destroyed.
The Chinese can make very good products but they don't
make a quality product at a rock-bottom price, they make
an inferior product at the rock-bottom price… just as
factories in any country would. The problem is that
most companies go to China demanding what is
called "the China price".
make a quality product at a rock-bottom price, they make
an inferior product at the rock-bottom price… just as
factories in any country would. The problem is that
most companies go to China demanding what is
called "the China price".
Comparing a Chinese made product with a US made product is often impossible because the US product isn't made here any more.
Oh you should know that most electric products "made
in China" are actually assembled in China and many parts
may be sourced from other countries.
I-Phones for example are assembled in China but most
of the cost in the phone is not in the Chinese labor
but in raw materials and high-tech manufacturing of
microprocessors and precision components done
in countries other than China.
in China" are actually assembled in China and many parts
may be sourced from other countries.
I-Phones for example are assembled in China but most
of the cost in the phone is not in the Chinese labor
but in raw materials and high-tech manufacturing of
microprocessors and precision components done
in countries other than China.
For years, the only Chinese tool I had was a lump hammer. Now I have a Quangsheng LA BU no.62 plane with 3 blades. It is absolutly brilliant. Flat ground and square. Really sharp blades with edge retention.( I made a new rear handle in matching Bubinga as the original was short and at a strange angle for me) I had dabbled with one of their plane blades and chipbreakers after buying a Rob Cosman combo. then a few more, pls a lever cap iron and bronze adjusting yoke. I am about to buy a QS LA block plane that like the 62, coms with 3 blades with different angles pre ground. I reccomend without reservation. One of my colleages has bought a QS no.5 plane.
IMO made in China is a mixed bag….
Not every hobbiest needs "top of the line" tools…. but if you're going to buy "good enough" for half price, you need to go into the acauisition with your eyes open.
I much prefer made in Tawain over made in China. The evolution of industry there has a 30 year head start on China and made in Tawain is arguably as good as made in Japan.
Many items just aren't made in the USA any more.
Not every hobbiest needs "top of the line" tools…. but if you're going to buy "good enough" for half price, you need to go into the acauisition with your eyes open.
I much prefer made in Tawain over made in China. The evolution of industry there has a 30 year head start on China and made in Tawain is arguably as good as made in Japan.
Many items just aren't made in the USA any more.
As long as you realize that most Chinese cities have resorted to welding the man hole covers in the street so they aren't stolen to make hand tools, you might be okay. (Low quality steel.)
Second thing to realize is that many of the name brands you know and love are already made in China and that those Chinese manufacturers usually make the exact same tool with thier own private label and sell it as the "top line" product at the imported tool store at a 70% mark down from the name brand.
Still, even with that knowledge it is a mixed bag.
Example 1:
There's the $200 name-brand jig saw that I bought with the Chinese private label for $69. Same tool, same awesome performance and features. They didn't even use a different color plastic in the molds… I just got to keep a lot more of my money which I used to buy more wood.
Example 2:
Then, there's the $19 trim router that the spindle was so unbalanced it nearly put me in the hospital the first time it was turned on. Thankfully, and luckily, I avoided injury with that one.
Second thing to realize is that many of the name brands you know and love are already made in China and that those Chinese manufacturers usually make the exact same tool with thier own private label and sell it as the "top line" product at the imported tool store at a 70% mark down from the name brand.
Still, even with that knowledge it is a mixed bag.
Example 1:
There's the $200 name-brand jig saw that I bought with the Chinese private label for $69. Same tool, same awesome performance and features. They didn't even use a different color plastic in the molds… I just got to keep a lot more of my money which I used to buy more wood.
Example 2:
Then, there's the $19 trim router that the spindle was so unbalanced it nearly put me in the hospital the first time it was turned on. Thankfully, and luckily, I avoided injury with that one.
Just like products that are or were made in the US there is good, bad and ugly. Some products are built to a quality point, some to a price point and some in the middle. Many of the woodworking machines built in the US in the last century were built only to a quality point, consumers like most of us didn't buy 20" bandsaw, cabinets saws or 12" jointers. They were built for commercial and industrial use by companies that spread the initial cost over many years.
Having lived in China for 16 months on a daily basis, and worked with their people shoulder to shoulder on a daily basis, I agree with a1Jim, Loren and Doss.
I drove a Buick while in China, made in Shanghai under the guidance of American Engineers. It had a four cylinder, turbo-charged, fuel injected engine, and was an absolutely great car that got great gas mileage. No catylitic converter on it, but the Chinese think differently than us, they think in terms of efficient burning of the fuel as an emmission control. They are wrong, but it ran great the whole time I was there and the next guy behind me praised it also. Doggone thing had an analog clock in the dashboard that actually worked!
On the other hand, all of us ex-pats used to say that things made by the Chinese people, for the Chinese people were not so hot. And we were right. I bought a bicycle while I was there, a 24 speed unit with three baskets, 27", all the bells and whistles for $125 American. Some Korean owned company. When you hit the front brake the tolerance on the front fork was so bad you always had the creepy feeling that the front wheel was going to go under you. And more than once I had a brake bracket snap off while stopping. You could buy a single speed bicycle over there for $18 American, brand new. Last you about 10 months, unless it got stolen first.
I worked for a furniture manufacturer, and I can safely say that the Chinese are copycats, not improvers like the Koreans and Japanese, not innovators like Northern Europe and the United States. They have little concept of how to make or improve anything, probably a direct result of a couple thousand years of feudal rule, then 35 years of Mao, and still another ten years of finally settling down into a sort of Socialist-Communist state. So they have been exposed to our technologies only since about 1988.
They want what we want, but they want it in their style. A Kentucky Fried Chicken breast in Shanghai is about 3 ozs., not the 6-8 ounce giant we get in the US. And it will come with Chinese sauces. But a Big Mac is still a Big Mac. You can buy Lays Potato chips in Shanghai, but they don't taste anywhere the same, and you can get flavors like shrimp, and soy sauce. I couldn't buy some things, like shoes. I wear a 12, and no Chinese person has a foot that big, at least they don't stock for it.
China is capable of making fine products. Really fine. We made good furniture and our covers were milled very well. Leather is a problem in China since they don't know about plastic fence, and they all still use barb wire, which screws up the leather when the cow scratches itself. They do make wonderful stringed instruments, with some factories being over 1000 years old, such as Shanghai Instrument Company #1. That's why they make such good guitars.
But I have a TAG Heuer Tiger Woods knockoff watch that I've fooled many people with. I'm probably on my fourth or fifth battery now. Great watch. I own Tommy Bamaha shirts that were made on what they call a "ghost shift". The factory shuts down, then another bunch of people come in at night, and make shirts out of the remaining cloths on the same machines, for sale in the famous Shanghai market, which is now in a beautiful indoor building in Shanghai, since the world could see them in the old outdoor market and kept complaining about it since every tourist and ex-pat visited it and spent money on famous knockoffs. I paid about $7-10 a shirt, and they even came with the real hangtags. Still available in Shanghai, in the Hongshen district…just need an airplane ticket.
So they are capable if they are guided, but left alone, they make pretty much junk.
Our problem is we want the $49 microwave, and you just cannot build that inside the US.
But things are changing fast. The Chinese government has mandated wage increases twice a year for about 8 years now. So back in 2006, when the Chinese worker was making .56 an hour, everybody was happy. Now they make $4.00 an hour, and companies are starting to look at the labor cost, the shipping/fuel issues, and further transportation, especially for East Coast people in the US. Reshoring is happening here, (not so much Europe), and if too much manufacturing leaves China, their economy will not support itself and they could have 200-250 MILLION people unemployed. (Total population of China is over 1,400,000,000) There are NO Fortune 100 Chinese built and owned companies, just millions of little mom and pops, and all the foreign investment which is what really holds up the Chinese economy. If that goes, that is probably when they start thinking of taking over another country…
I drove a Buick while in China, made in Shanghai under the guidance of American Engineers. It had a four cylinder, turbo-charged, fuel injected engine, and was an absolutely great car that got great gas mileage. No catylitic converter on it, but the Chinese think differently than us, they think in terms of efficient burning of the fuel as an emmission control. They are wrong, but it ran great the whole time I was there and the next guy behind me praised it also. Doggone thing had an analog clock in the dashboard that actually worked!
On the other hand, all of us ex-pats used to say that things made by the Chinese people, for the Chinese people were not so hot. And we were right. I bought a bicycle while I was there, a 24 speed unit with three baskets, 27", all the bells and whistles for $125 American. Some Korean owned company. When you hit the front brake the tolerance on the front fork was so bad you always had the creepy feeling that the front wheel was going to go under you. And more than once I had a brake bracket snap off while stopping. You could buy a single speed bicycle over there for $18 American, brand new. Last you about 10 months, unless it got stolen first.
I worked for a furniture manufacturer, and I can safely say that the Chinese are copycats, not improvers like the Koreans and Japanese, not innovators like Northern Europe and the United States. They have little concept of how to make or improve anything, probably a direct result of a couple thousand years of feudal rule, then 35 years of Mao, and still another ten years of finally settling down into a sort of Socialist-Communist state. So they have been exposed to our technologies only since about 1988.
They want what we want, but they want it in their style. A Kentucky Fried Chicken breast in Shanghai is about 3 ozs., not the 6-8 ounce giant we get in the US. And it will come with Chinese sauces. But a Big Mac is still a Big Mac. You can buy Lays Potato chips in Shanghai, but they don't taste anywhere the same, and you can get flavors like shrimp, and soy sauce. I couldn't buy some things, like shoes. I wear a 12, and no Chinese person has a foot that big, at least they don't stock for it.
China is capable of making fine products. Really fine. We made good furniture and our covers were milled very well. Leather is a problem in China since they don't know about plastic fence, and they all still use barb wire, which screws up the leather when the cow scratches itself. They do make wonderful stringed instruments, with some factories being over 1000 years old, such as Shanghai Instrument Company #1. That's why they make such good guitars.
But I have a TAG Heuer Tiger Woods knockoff watch that I've fooled many people with. I'm probably on my fourth or fifth battery now. Great watch. I own Tommy Bamaha shirts that were made on what they call a "ghost shift". The factory shuts down, then another bunch of people come in at night, and make shirts out of the remaining cloths on the same machines, for sale in the famous Shanghai market, which is now in a beautiful indoor building in Shanghai, since the world could see them in the old outdoor market and kept complaining about it since every tourist and ex-pat visited it and spent money on famous knockoffs. I paid about $7-10 a shirt, and they even came with the real hangtags. Still available in Shanghai, in the Hongshen district…just need an airplane ticket.
So they are capable if they are guided, but left alone, they make pretty much junk.
Our problem is we want the $49 microwave, and you just cannot build that inside the US.
But things are changing fast. The Chinese government has mandated wage increases twice a year for about 8 years now. So back in 2006, when the Chinese worker was making .56 an hour, everybody was happy. Now they make $4.00 an hour, and companies are starting to look at the labor cost, the shipping/fuel issues, and further transportation, especially for East Coast people in the US. Reshoring is happening here, (not so much Europe), and if too much manufacturing leaves China, their economy will not support itself and they could have 200-250 MILLION people unemployed. (Total population of China is over 1,400,000,000) There are NO Fortune 100 Chinese built and owned companies, just millions of little mom and pops, and all the foreign investment which is what really holds up the Chinese economy. If that goes, that is probably when they start thinking of taking over another country…
The problem becomes magnified when China is asked to make brand name tools like dewalt delta etc then your buying top dollar from bottom dollar manufacturers is this wrong? If it keep us buying dewalt delta porter cable at low prices and the goods are good then I say so be it.Alistair
Continuing Tennessee's thoughts, I don't feel anything is wrong with Chinese goods. They are what they are. As said before, if directed, they do what they're told. If no one tells them, they do as they please (like anyone else would). Nothing wrong with that. I think the problem with producing what some see as junk is their exposure to the rest of the world. They don't see what we see is wrong with the way they do things (sometimes) so they don't change what we perceive as their flaws. Why? Because they don't know any different.
Moving on, I don't blame the Chinese for making inferior tools for the big names. They do what they are asked to do. Those big names are asking for lower and lower manufacturing to shelf costs so they can increase profit. If Americans showed they were willing to buy on a quality basis rather than a price basis, I'm sure the goods China cranked out to us would be of higher quality.
Because that is not the case and the majority of us (Americans) want things for the lowest price possible, we should not be surprised when we are given junk.
If you want quality, be prepared to pay for it.
Moving on, I don't blame the Chinese for making inferior tools for the big names. They do what they are asked to do. Those big names are asking for lower and lower manufacturing to shelf costs so they can increase profit. If Americans showed they were willing to buy on a quality basis rather than a price basis, I'm sure the goods China cranked out to us would be of higher quality.
Because that is not the case and the majority of us (Americans) want things for the lowest price possible, we should not be surprised when we are given junk.
If you want quality, be prepared to pay for it.
Many of Dewalt's better tools are made in Italy. The 621
and 625 routers are. The DW712 trim saw is made in
Italy as well. The Dewalt scroll saws were made in Canada
but I think they are not anymore. These are all tools
I've owned and all very good quality for the price - not
Festool quality but pretty close.
and 625 routers are. The DW712 trim saw is made in
Italy as well. The Dewalt scroll saws were made in Canada
but I think they are not anymore. These are all tools
I've owned and all very good quality for the price - not
Festool quality but pretty close.
I remember the day when "made in Japan" was a joke. It was associated with cheap junk. Now they have completely dominated us in car and electronics manufacturing. Our cars are a joke compared to theirs. When was the last time you watched a television made in the US? I see the day when "made in China" will stand for quality. Don't get me wrong. I am 100% American, through and through.
Paul, that was one of the best replies I've read in a long time - thanks for the perspective.
And DKV, I agree with you about the history of Japanese quality. But not many folks know, they got there with a little help from a friend - one of our guys
Reminds me of the famous baker who was asked why he gave his recipes away. He said 'anyone that works as hard as we do to bake the best cookie deserves the same success we've had.' I always liked that attitude.
And DKV, I agree with you about the history of Japanese quality. But not many folks know, they got there with a little help from a friend - one of our guys
Reminds me of the famous baker who was asked why he gave his recipes away. He said 'anyone that works as hard as we do to bake the best cookie deserves the same success we've had.' I always liked that attitude.
I don't buy them. For starters, there's something wrong when the labor rates are so different between two different countries. Whether it's the exchange rate, or a case of slave labor, I don't like the ramifications of it so I'd rather not contribute money to buy cheap products built there. There's also the negative reputation of labor camps and other forms of draconian policies that they've yet to overcome. Until that reputation is gone to my satisfaction and Chinese workers are getting similar wages to American workers, "made in China" reads "don't buy this" in my eyes.
Certainly American corporations aren't always the best of role models but at least they're closer to home and I can more easily pick and choose which products to support. I'm sure I've unintentionally given money to a corrupt company on more than one occasion but I am positive that it is less money than would have been the case if I didn't bother to make the effort in the first place.
Ironically, avoiding products from China has actually saved me money rather than costing me more. Usually I end up deciding I don't need the item period and don't even look for a different make of the same product. Other times I'll locate a quality used product. Occasionally I end up purchasing a high end offering from a reputable company or a small time manufacturer. Festool, Malkoff Devices, Elzetta, Lie Nielsen, Adria, Carl Ziess and other makers of quality devices charge a lot but their products are rock solid.
Hopefully the Chinese will soon be able to produce useful goods for themselves instead of putting so much of their manpower into producing low quality goods for outside consumption.
Certainly American corporations aren't always the best of role models but at least they're closer to home and I can more easily pick and choose which products to support. I'm sure I've unintentionally given money to a corrupt company on more than one occasion but I am positive that it is less money than would have been the case if I didn't bother to make the effort in the first place.
Ironically, avoiding products from China has actually saved me money rather than costing me more. Usually I end up deciding I don't need the item period and don't even look for a different make of the same product. Other times I'll locate a quality used product. Occasionally I end up purchasing a high end offering from a reputable company or a small time manufacturer. Festool, Malkoff Devices, Elzetta, Lie Nielsen, Adria, Carl Ziess and other makers of quality devices charge a lot but their products are rock solid.
Hopefully the Chinese will soon be able to produce useful goods for themselves instead of putting so much of their manpower into producing low quality goods for outside consumption.
I'm confused. Are we talking about Chinese made products under a Chinese brand name or are we talking about Chinese made products for a nonChinese brand name. If the latter then you can't fault the Chinese manufacturer since they build based on specs from the American, European, etc company. Cheap specs…cheap product.
labor cost is only one factor….
The company I work for spends tens of thousands of dollars on software….. while in China piracy is rampant. But even if they're willing to pay for the software, MS sells Office Pro with a "not for use in the US" license for $20 a seat.
Then there's the cost of regulatory compliance.
The cost of liability insurance….. worker's comp….. and health insurance for your employees.
There's the complicated web of US tax law…. with many taxes that discourage business expansion, like the capital equipment taxes Michigan is finally trying to get rid of.
I think the brain dead stupidity of the US has finally overtaken our prospects for growth as well. Case in point, when was the last time you heard of a Chinese company getting hit with a multi-million dollar judgement for serving their coffee to hot.
Each of these items is an obstacle that can be overcome…. add them all together and you get a ham strung economy. And just wait until global carbon taxes kick in with exemptions for "developing countries". Or when all the poor countries go to the UN and vote that all the rich countries should pay out the nose (more than they already do) to underwrite their development.
As for the corporate greed comments…. I'm sure that comes into play. But what about the consumer greed? Where people insist on rock bottom prices for everything, and can give a rats @$$ whether the poor sod who makes his paycheck making that product can get a living wage out of the deal or not. In my estimation, that is the underlying dynamic that has forced U.S. Manufacturers to go off shore…. the only other option may be to join the ranks of the many failed businesses we all once knew of.
The company I work for spends tens of thousands of dollars on software….. while in China piracy is rampant. But even if they're willing to pay for the software, MS sells Office Pro with a "not for use in the US" license for $20 a seat.
Then there's the cost of regulatory compliance.
The cost of liability insurance….. worker's comp….. and health insurance for your employees.
There's the complicated web of US tax law…. with many taxes that discourage business expansion, like the capital equipment taxes Michigan is finally trying to get rid of.
I think the brain dead stupidity of the US has finally overtaken our prospects for growth as well. Case in point, when was the last time you heard of a Chinese company getting hit with a multi-million dollar judgement for serving their coffee to hot.
Each of these items is an obstacle that can be overcome…. add them all together and you get a ham strung economy. And just wait until global carbon taxes kick in with exemptions for "developing countries". Or when all the poor countries go to the UN and vote that all the rich countries should pay out the nose (more than they already do) to underwrite their development.
As for the corporate greed comments…. I'm sure that comes into play. But what about the consumer greed? Where people insist on rock bottom prices for everything, and can give a rats @$$ whether the poor sod who makes his paycheck making that product can get a living wage out of the deal or not. In my estimation, that is the underlying dynamic that has forced U.S. Manufacturers to go off shore…. the only other option may be to join the ranks of the many failed businesses we all once knew of.
more importantly than country of origin is the consideration of how cheap you want a tool to cost. if a Table saw for example cost $500 but you want it for $100 - then the factory will make it for $100 - and obviously will have to cut those extra expanses of making it - somehow - most likely with lower grade materials, lesser quality castings and no machining, poor assembly, and no QA. in that case it'll probably be junk. but if you are willing to pay $499 for it - then you might just get a good quality machine if the mfg. is willing to cover that $1 loss in benefit of more sales.
There are junk chinese tools out there, and there are really high quality chinese tools out there (that are still cheaper than tools made elsewhere). you have to do your research per tool to figure out which one you are getting.
There are junk chinese tools out there, and there are really high quality chinese tools out there (that are still cheaper than tools made elsewhere). you have to do your research per tool to figure out which one you are getting.
To answer DKV, I'm referring to any products that carry the made in China label regardless of the manufacturer's base of operations.
China has two assembly lines, one with quality specs and quality products and one with cheap specs and cheap products. I agree with Purplev's second paragraph in that you have to do your research. Apple is a good example of a company that holds their Chinese manufacturers to high specs. Harbor Freight on the other hand…
ssnvet makes the prime point: That US consumers, due to outlets like Walmart, Costco, and others have made us believe that we can get bargain goods at a US quality. Wrong… The real truth is if you look around your house and belongings, at least 50-70% is made overseas, be it Europe or the Asian Rim. And most of it is not prime quality.
I would be the first to say that Japan, South Korea, and soon - Indonesia, will be making goods as good as the US if not better. Japanese cars have built the last nine plants in the South of the US, and they are all successful. The one American plant, Saturn, located in TN, was shuttered when the bailout came. Penske tried to bring Saturn back to life, but the unions would not negotiate the 18 million in benefits and retirements that Penske wanted reduced - Penske simply walked away from the table and the brand died. GM is using the plant at about a 20% capacity for parts, hardly the full measure they had years ago. Too bad, I always liked Saturns, thought they were great US innovations. Overseas, their current problem is the cost of moving it to the US. Ironically, the horrid gas problem also includes diesel and JP5, which is the fuel of most tankers on the Pacific. With those costs skyrocketing, along with the cost of fueling trains crossing the Rockies, and the increased wages of the Pacific rim folks, we are seeing a strong trend toward "reshoring", the art of bringing a company back to the US.
I will take a beating for this, but one of our biggest roadblocks is our union membership, which causes not big wage increases, but benefit increases. We cannot absorb the cost to pay them when they retire at 60 and live another 18 years. I find it ironic that since Walker in Wisconsin has passed his union changes in Wisconsin, including the option to opt out of automatic deduction of your union dues from your check, a little over 50% of the union members in Wisconsin have told the unions to stop taking deductions out of their wages - no wonder, with the economy where it is. Union membership is down 55% in Wisconsin as I write this in critical, auto deduct unions in Wisconsin. Hmmm.
With all that, this opens a wonderful window for products to re-enter the US from China, Mexico and other places, and it is happening.
Where I live, in SE Tennessee, Volkswagen opened a new plant. They paid probably 15-20% less than union wages would have wanted in NE plants, but with full benefits. It is also cheaper to live down here. Gas, for instance, is $3.19. 65,000 people put in applications for 2700 jobs at Volkswagen. With this plant, Volkswagen was able to reduce the cost of their Passant almost $7000, and due to their great sales, are currently looking for another 400 workers to fill the need for a total of 3100 jobs in less than 14 months. The Tier One plants have not even begun to arrive, having 60 months to move here. Some have arrived, like Gestamp Automoticon, who stamps frames for Volkswagen, and E-spin, who makes seat padding. But the bulk are yet to arrive, bringing another 12,000 jobs. All non-union. Not banging unions, just saying that reality is here, we need to compete with the world.
Then Amazon came along and added another 800-1000 jobs. Whacker silicon is here with another 1000 jobs. It goes on and on. It's crazy in Hamilton county, TN, and surrounding counties. The most common license plate we see here out of state? Michigan. Sorry, MI folks. You have a beautiful state, but hard to make a living there… Here, we have a right to work state, no income taxes, no unions, and our weather is easier to control in a plant. There is a definite reason the last nine auto plants in the US were built South of the Mason-Dixon line.
With all that being said, I would agree that the Chinese juggernaut is still a big animal, being fed by people like Walmart, Target and others. It will take years before we can equalize the playing field, but it is happening. China announced their first "stimulus plan" this year, where they will give money to their citizens to spend. Same as us, but it won't work - Chinese citizens save 30-50% of their wages. It will end up mostly in the banks of China. I used to walk stores with Chinese folk, but they bought nothing, just window shopped. But as Japan found out when they adopted our system, people found out what capitalism really is, true competition. People like LG and Ibanez found out that to compete in a global marketplace, you simply have to build the best product. My wife loves her LG fridge. I own an Ibanez guitar. May the best product win!
Now that South Korea is on board, Indonesia is close as is others, and China is maybe 5-8 years behind that, I have a more optimistic view of what GW Bush called the true "global economy", where everyone is playing at the same level.
That, more than anything, will save the US. We can compete because I firmly believe we are true innovators and inventors. Just take a look at the small scale projects on this site. Amazing stuff!!! In the end, the people with the best ideas will prevail, once labor and logistic costs level, which is IMHO, about 7-8 years away. We have the best minds, the best inventors, and our democratic system makes it easy for us to sell. Rock on!!
I would be the first to say that Japan, South Korea, and soon - Indonesia, will be making goods as good as the US if not better. Japanese cars have built the last nine plants in the South of the US, and they are all successful. The one American plant, Saturn, located in TN, was shuttered when the bailout came. Penske tried to bring Saturn back to life, but the unions would not negotiate the 18 million in benefits and retirements that Penske wanted reduced - Penske simply walked away from the table and the brand died. GM is using the plant at about a 20% capacity for parts, hardly the full measure they had years ago. Too bad, I always liked Saturns, thought they were great US innovations. Overseas, their current problem is the cost of moving it to the US. Ironically, the horrid gas problem also includes diesel and JP5, which is the fuel of most tankers on the Pacific. With those costs skyrocketing, along with the cost of fueling trains crossing the Rockies, and the increased wages of the Pacific rim folks, we are seeing a strong trend toward "reshoring", the art of bringing a company back to the US.
I will take a beating for this, but one of our biggest roadblocks is our union membership, which causes not big wage increases, but benefit increases. We cannot absorb the cost to pay them when they retire at 60 and live another 18 years. I find it ironic that since Walker in Wisconsin has passed his union changes in Wisconsin, including the option to opt out of automatic deduction of your union dues from your check, a little over 50% of the union members in Wisconsin have told the unions to stop taking deductions out of their wages - no wonder, with the economy where it is. Union membership is down 55% in Wisconsin as I write this in critical, auto deduct unions in Wisconsin. Hmmm.
With all that, this opens a wonderful window for products to re-enter the US from China, Mexico and other places, and it is happening.
Where I live, in SE Tennessee, Volkswagen opened a new plant. They paid probably 15-20% less than union wages would have wanted in NE plants, but with full benefits. It is also cheaper to live down here. Gas, for instance, is $3.19. 65,000 people put in applications for 2700 jobs at Volkswagen. With this plant, Volkswagen was able to reduce the cost of their Passant almost $7000, and due to their great sales, are currently looking for another 400 workers to fill the need for a total of 3100 jobs in less than 14 months. The Tier One plants have not even begun to arrive, having 60 months to move here. Some have arrived, like Gestamp Automoticon, who stamps frames for Volkswagen, and E-spin, who makes seat padding. But the bulk are yet to arrive, bringing another 12,000 jobs. All non-union. Not banging unions, just saying that reality is here, we need to compete with the world.
Then Amazon came along and added another 800-1000 jobs. Whacker silicon is here with another 1000 jobs. It goes on and on. It's crazy in Hamilton county, TN, and surrounding counties. The most common license plate we see here out of state? Michigan. Sorry, MI folks. You have a beautiful state, but hard to make a living there… Here, we have a right to work state, no income taxes, no unions, and our weather is easier to control in a plant. There is a definite reason the last nine auto plants in the US were built South of the Mason-Dixon line.
With all that being said, I would agree that the Chinese juggernaut is still a big animal, being fed by people like Walmart, Target and others. It will take years before we can equalize the playing field, but it is happening. China announced their first "stimulus plan" this year, where they will give money to their citizens to spend. Same as us, but it won't work - Chinese citizens save 30-50% of their wages. It will end up mostly in the banks of China. I used to walk stores with Chinese folk, but they bought nothing, just window shopped. But as Japan found out when they adopted our system, people found out what capitalism really is, true competition. People like LG and Ibanez found out that to compete in a global marketplace, you simply have to build the best product. My wife loves her LG fridge. I own an Ibanez guitar. May the best product win!
Now that South Korea is on board, Indonesia is close as is others, and China is maybe 5-8 years behind that, I have a more optimistic view of what GW Bush called the true "global economy", where everyone is playing at the same level.
That, more than anything, will save the US. We can compete because I firmly believe we are true innovators and inventors. Just take a look at the small scale projects on this site. Amazing stuff!!! In the end, the people with the best ideas will prevail, once labor and logistic costs level, which is IMHO, about 7-8 years away. We have the best minds, the best inventors, and our democratic system makes it easy for us to sell. Rock on!!
Too much cheap junk coming out of there. The CEOs seem to think they can take a warm body out of a rice paddy and have skilled labor for the factory floor ;-) One of our local manufacturers of large transportation vehicles found the "global partners" were just roughing out parts and shipping them as finished product saying that was the best they could do. a friend of mine worked in the salvage operation. The latest vehicle was 3 years late off the assembly line ;-(
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