Here you can discuss anything related to the Summer 2007 Awards.
2
don't start building yet… I think Martin is still contemplating your thoughts on the subject
--many ways to join boards without the use of mechanical fasteners or glues!
Tongue and groove, ship lap and then draw pin or wood peg it….butterfly's and then what about the sliding dovetail which one runs along the edge of the wood and then slides the next board in place, mortise and tenon and wood peg….just off the top of my head.
After all, wood lives and wood moves….
GODSPEED,
Frank
Tongue and groove, ship lap and then draw pin or wood peg it….butterfly's and then what about the sliding dovetail which one runs along the edge of the wood and then slides the next board in place, mortise and tenon and wood peg….just off the top of my head.
After all, wood lives and wood moves….
GODSPEED,
Frank
Frank/Scott.. those ideas are really helpful.
Speaking for myself, I don't know much (or anything) about joinery so this will help me as I plan what to build and how to do it.
Any more ideas would be greatly appreciated as well.
Thank you , thank you. You made the "no glue" sound do-able.
Speaking for myself, I don't know much (or anything) about joinery so this will help me as I plan what to build and how to do it.
Any more ideas would be greatly appreciated as well.
Thank you , thank you. You made the "no glue" sound do-able.
I wonder if you use superglue as the finish and some of that seeped into the cracks, would that still be OK? LOL
I promise I won't make any more comments, but I think the exclusion of glue should be rethought.
Found this on the Internet:
"Nearly 4,000 years ago, the Egyptians were using hide glue for their furniture adhesive. This is proven by hairs found in Pharaoh's tombs and by stone carvings depicting the process of gluing different woods. Hide glue is still in use today for wood gluing and over the years much has been written about the manufacture and use of hide glue for hundreds of other adhesive applications. With the evolution of synthetic (ready to use) adhesives, hide glue has taken a lesser role in industry but has maintained a major role in repair and restoration of antique furniture, reproduction of period furniture, restoration, production and repair of musical instruments as well as numerous other applications.
Most of the hide glue literature was written from the mid 1800's to the mid 1900's, and unfortunately much of this literature has been lost or abandoned."
No glue - sure it's possible - it's doable - I mentioned the same methods Frank did to join boards in another part of the blog. Yet, I believe Frank makes the point for glue rather than against it. Wood lives and moves! Therefore, whatever we build will try to move and loosen and fall apart on it's own - no matter how tight our joinery is when we enter the competition. There are only a handful of joinery methods that will last without glue. Others methods might look great during competition month but will result in a piece that looks "rustic" or is a pile of parts in a year or so - especially if there's any strain of use. Thus, no glue actually limits our realistic options and creativity. Many wood joinery methods are so strong not only because of a strong mechanical bond but because they increase the glue surface area in the joint!
I told Deb that I'm not trying to be a sourpuss or rain on the parade, but I just don't see the point. "No glue" is not more "traditional" unless you're shooting for prehistoric traditional. "No glue" doesn't make it harder or prove skill, it just limits the options. Perhaps what you're shooting for in the joinery skill competition is really "all-wood-by-hand" joinery vs. metal assisted and/or jigs and machines/power tools joinery?
I'll shut up now and have fun participating in the best way I can within the rules that are outlined.
Found this on the Internet:
"Nearly 4,000 years ago, the Egyptians were using hide glue for their furniture adhesive. This is proven by hairs found in Pharaoh's tombs and by stone carvings depicting the process of gluing different woods. Hide glue is still in use today for wood gluing and over the years much has been written about the manufacture and use of hide glue for hundreds of other adhesive applications. With the evolution of synthetic (ready to use) adhesives, hide glue has taken a lesser role in industry but has maintained a major role in repair and restoration of antique furniture, reproduction of period furniture, restoration, production and repair of musical instruments as well as numerous other applications.
Most of the hide glue literature was written from the mid 1800's to the mid 1900's, and unfortunately much of this literature has been lost or abandoned."
No glue - sure it's possible - it's doable - I mentioned the same methods Frank did to join boards in another part of the blog. Yet, I believe Frank makes the point for glue rather than against it. Wood lives and moves! Therefore, whatever we build will try to move and loosen and fall apart on it's own - no matter how tight our joinery is when we enter the competition. There are only a handful of joinery methods that will last without glue. Others methods might look great during competition month but will result in a piece that looks "rustic" or is a pile of parts in a year or so - especially if there's any strain of use. Thus, no glue actually limits our realistic options and creativity. Many wood joinery methods are so strong not only because of a strong mechanical bond but because they increase the glue surface area in the joint!
I told Deb that I'm not trying to be a sourpuss or rain on the parade, but I just don't see the point. "No glue" is not more "traditional" unless you're shooting for prehistoric traditional. "No glue" doesn't make it harder or prove skill, it just limits the options. Perhaps what you're shooting for in the joinery skill competition is really "all-wood-by-hand" joinery vs. metal assisted and/or jigs and machines/power tools joinery?
I'll shut up now and have fun participating in the best way I can within the rules that are outlined.
I AM SO EXCITED!!! SCHOOL IS OUT!!! Grades are in!!! THE WOODSHOP IS OPEN!!! This is the GREATEST SATURDAY of the YEAR--Christmas X's TEN!!! To wake up and get a weekend without anything to worry about only happens twom months out of the year…
So I am soooo happy--and where did I go on the first saturday of my new life--LJ…And now I will have time to learn my new tools (just got a new Shopsmith two weeks ago) and build away…Before the "summer awards" came out I was planning to still do Challenge 1 on my own after watching everyones brilliant work for 3 months…I may still do it…
This challenge is a bit different…since the project choice is soooo wide open…I will have to pick up some super glue--based on the comments above it looks like the competition is going to get a bit sticky…
cant wait to see some great projects…
matt
So I am soooo happy--and where did I go on the first saturday of my new life--LJ…And now I will have time to learn my new tools (just got a new Shopsmith two weeks ago) and build away…Before the "summer awards" came out I was planning to still do Challenge 1 on my own after watching everyones brilliant work for 3 months…I may still do it…
This challenge is a bit different…since the project choice is soooo wide open…I will have to pick up some super glue--based on the comments above it looks like the competition is going to get a bit sticky…
cant wait to see some great projects…
matt
Hi Paul;
--when you say; "I believe Frank makes the point for glue rather than against it. Wood lives and moves!"....
I believe you have mis-understood what I am saying…..
Yes wood does live and wood does move and in the end, the result of this action will be, that the wood all-ways wins. Therefore what I have learned from this is that by building to allow for that movement from the start, produces much better and more satisfying end results.
GODSPEED,
Frank
--when you say; "I believe Frank makes the point for glue rather than against it. Wood lives and moves!"....
I believe you have mis-understood what I am saying…..
Yes wood does live and wood does move and in the end, the result of this action will be, that the wood all-ways wins. Therefore what I have learned from this is that by building to allow for that movement from the start, produces much better and more satisfying end results.
GODSPEED,
Frank
The glues we have today are an absolute miracle no doubt, and thank God we have em. I think i understand the challenge to build without it though. Where you would normally use glue to make a flush and flawless joint, you now will be put in a position to accent and even draw attention to a "live" joint or connection. Sounds like an interesting challenge to me.
Just pretend youre in a woodshop on a remote island and theres no dang glue to be found!
Just pretend youre in a woodshop on a remote island and theres no dang glue to be found!
I promised to let it go and have fun.
Considering the wood species and joinery used, my single vote may not go to the prettiest. tightest or most difficult to execute, but to the one that will last without glue.
Considering the wood species and joinery used, my single vote may not go to the prettiest. tightest or most difficult to execute, but to the one that will last without glue.
Thanks for this great discussion, Paul, Frank and others! Here are my 2 cents
As you know I've first started this topic to request the ideas for the summer awards categories. And there you can find the reply made by Frank:
---
This could fall into two themes for the projects:
1.)--which would consist of 'Wood Joinery'
a) 'Wood Joinery' in the purist sense of the definition means joining the wood without the use of glues, metal nails, metal screws or any type of mechanical fastener.
....and….
2.)--joining the wood by 'Traditional Methods of Joinery'
a) 'Traditional Methods of Joinery' would include the use of glues, nails, screws, mechanical fasteners; or any and all of the above combinations.
---
So you can see the exact descriptions of both proposed themes by Frank.
Then I decided to add Wood Joinery (not Traditional Methods of Joinery) defined by Frank into our Summer Awards poll where all of you could cast the votes for the favorite categories. Aaaand, maybe surprisingly, Wood Joinery won so it become one of the categories. It was chosen in the democratic poll.
As you can see above the entries in this category should follow this rule: "joining the wood without the use of glues, metal nails, metal screws or any type of mechanical fastener."
I know it can be very challenging… but it was chosen by the majority plus we have another category to participate. And we will have different categories in the next Awards So by deciding to participate in this category you've actually decided to use pure wood joinery.
As you know from th Winter Awards I have no intention to ban the entries. You will be the judges. And you will also judge how each respective entry follow the rules…
Hope this makes sense
As you know I've first started this topic to request the ideas for the summer awards categories. And there you can find the reply made by Frank:
---
This could fall into two themes for the projects:
1.)--which would consist of 'Wood Joinery'
a) 'Wood Joinery' in the purist sense of the definition means joining the wood without the use of glues, metal nails, metal screws or any type of mechanical fastener.
....and….
2.)--joining the wood by 'Traditional Methods of Joinery'
a) 'Traditional Methods of Joinery' would include the use of glues, nails, screws, mechanical fasteners; or any and all of the above combinations.
---
So you can see the exact descriptions of both proposed themes by Frank.
Then I decided to add Wood Joinery (not Traditional Methods of Joinery) defined by Frank into our Summer Awards poll where all of you could cast the votes for the favorite categories. Aaaand, maybe surprisingly, Wood Joinery won so it become one of the categories. It was chosen in the democratic poll.
As you can see above the entries in this category should follow this rule: "joining the wood without the use of glues, metal nails, metal screws or any type of mechanical fastener."
I know it can be very challenging… but it was chosen by the majority plus we have another category to participate. And we will have different categories in the next Awards
So by deciding to participate in this category you've actually decided to use pure wood joinery.As you know from th Winter Awards I have no intention to ban the entries. You will be the judges. And you will also judge how each respective entry follow the rules…
Hope this makes sense
Paul, I respect your point of view and how you have verbalized your perspective.
It isn't always you hear someone speak their mind so AND look forward to participating. Bravo
As Frank often says, "it "JUST IS"...
I also have to say that I have enjoyed reading the informative discussion about glue and joinery - so even if I don't try to build something for the category, I sure have learned lots!!
Thanks everyone for their thoughts and their expertise.
It isn't always you hear someone speak their mind so AND look forward to participating. Bravo
As Frank often says, "it "JUST IS"...
I also have to say that I have enjoyed reading the informative discussion about glue and joinery - so even if I don't try to build something for the category, I sure have learned lots!!
Thanks everyone for their thoughts and their expertise.
Been doing some research with Mr Google, as Frank calls him. Thought I would share this lead - it looks like our Chinese brothers/sisters might have something to teach me (us) in this joinery challenge! Stuck in the Western box? Think Eastern (Japanese, too)! Many refer to this source:
Chinese furniture : hardwood examples of the Ming and early Qing dynasties
by Robert Hatfield Ellsworth
Too much to buy ($100+ on-line) - only about 5 library copies in the state of Texas according to the internet. I'll see if I can get it through inter-library loan.
Chinese furniture : hardwood examples of the Ming and early Qing dynasties
by Robert Hatfield Ellsworth
Too much to buy ($100+ on-line) - only about 5 library copies in the state of Texas according to the internet. I'll see if I can get it through inter-library loan.
I was just remembering some Japanese box joints I've seen earlier, and I know are linked around LJ somewhere… some really fancy stuff - mind boggling. Some versions of dovetails that look like the tails are on both boards, in lieu of pins, and the pieces slide together diagonally, and once together… that's it. can't take em apart - not without the risk, or likelyhood of damage…. I was thinking to look east. Looks like I won't be the only one in that camp.
I think Frank posted those links in an earlier post. They were AMAZING and if I remember correctly some of the joints just looked like they interlocked and were just for "eye candy" while the actually interlocking part was much simpler… that's what I remember of the joints hehehe that was back in my "use screws to put a simple butt joint together" days.
Yup.. this is sure going to be interesting
Yup.. this is sure going to be interesting
it's easy to miss something these days.
Now if only someone could design my project, show me how to do the glueless/screwless joint… and stand beside me while I attempt it all-I'll do just fine
Now if only someone could design my project, show me how to do the glueless/screwless joint… and stand beside me while I attempt it all-I'll do just fine
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