I'm inclined to agree with you Leon.
We are either TFC (Trolling For Complements) or genuinely trying to instruct or learn at these forums.
I often see posters who only post in order to blow their horns and never post a compliment or criticism in the interim.
Perhaps the simple phrase "comments welcomed" at the end of a project would ease the transition.

p.s. it would also be nice if whem you do ask a question that the poster takes the time to answer you.

Bob

 

Right on.

 

thats a slippery slope.

I decline to offer advice as feathers get bent out of shape.

Cheers

 

You have a good point, but I have a personal rule that I won't offer advice unless I'm asked.

 

I offer an example of a thread from another forum that has a different focus, but is similar in many ways. This post is one of my all time favorites. Those folks who do wood bending and use epoxy will find it interesting.

Hi! Wood_Ogre here

It was posted by a guy with decades of experience. The responders gave him compliments, but also offered criticism and advise. I think the discussions that resulted really helped my understanding of the topic.

I would like to see more of this type of discussion here on this site. I have been a LumberJocks member for only three days, and my initial observations match those stated by Leon above.

 

Personally I would be grateful for a gentle nudge in the right direction. Once my shop thaws out and I start to make and post some projects I will ask for truthful critiques. My goal is to become a better woodworker and any help is to my benefit. I unfortunately have no woodworking clubs or affordable classes near me so it is my hope that I can pick up some skills from this forum.

 

I'm new here, and hesitant to comment..But of course I will anyway…it is a slippery slope..Don't like it : SAY NOTHING..that's what my mom told me…hmmm…and who are we to "constructively critcize?" Jeepers..camera angles can affect the balance of a piece…style and design are in the eye of the beholder…I do not like Queen Anne..I love shaker..it's a preference issue…so …I think it's a pandora's box

 

I agree with your post Leon. But unless I see something that I feel really needs correcting I am hesitant to offer advice. If there is an obvious safety and health concern, for example, that I see in the post I feel that a comment should be suggested. But whether the project should be dovetailed or have box joints in place of the butt joints that is the poster's choice and I really shouldn't be commenting on it unless requested.

I am generally open and have a personal rule that if you don't want me to tell you my opinion do ask. (I had to check to see if you had a question about this in your entry- so I am safe in giving you my opinion).

 

I think the progress blogs are the best place for open critique or suggestions. Once it is on the project page it is usually a done deal. Critique then could be requested.

 

I'd like to add this. If I post a project and I mention that the dovetails aren't real crisp (for example), or the finish didn't come out as well as I had hoped for, then I don't need a half a dozen guys piling on. If I don't mention an obvious flaw then perhaps I do need a nudge.

 

I had to go check out the box in question. I liked the observations or critiques, but I liked the non-matching dovetail even more. Taste is a funny thing. We tend to discount stuff just based on taste or what is fashionable. Rustic or modern they both have very high quality pieces and others that are cheap junk. What I like are when you give me alternatives. Our "critique" here usually comes in the form of a question. "Why did you stagger your dovetails?" I have seen a lot of questions asked here that I've been able to learn from.

 

I try to include a bit of constructive help when it looks warranted, but I feel I have to be very subtle about it - like walking on egg shells - because of the prominent disdain for anything "negative" that might come out of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

To be honest with you, I hate walking on egg shells.

It is so much easier to be open and forthcoming and sincere and to tell someone, "Hey, you're doing really good on this part of your project but on your next project you might want to consider focusing a little more on this other part of it." I think it impedes the learning aspect of posting projects to your peers. I liken it to having kids play non-competitive sports. It doesn't teach them a whole lot about the really real world (i.e. LIFE) unless they're going to get into some field where it doesn't matter how good you are; where everyone gets paid the same and has the same benefits no matter how high or low your skill level and knowledge. I don't really think those jobs exist. And if they did, I certainly wouldn't want one of them.

Who are we to criticize?

Maybe we are a woodworker who has made the same mistake before and can offer some advice on how to correct it or avoid it in the future.

Maybe we are someone who specializes in carving and can offer advice on how to get a crisper line or how to make an object look more life-like.

Maybe we have been cutting mortise and tenon joinery for 25 years and can tell you what you need to do to make the joint come together a little more snug or fit a little better to create a stronger joint.

Maybe we have a degree in art and can give you information on how to improve the aesthetics of your project from a designer's point of view. Sometimes it doesn't take but a little tweak to get your project from OK to GREAT!

Maybe we do woodworking for a living and can explain from our business experiences what sells and what doesn't.

Maybe we restore antiques for a living and can help you improve upon your finish by telling you where you're doing it wrong and how to do it right.

Is any one person all of these things? Probably not. But I guarantee you with over 3000 members on this site, there is at least one person who is. Why not be willing to learn from them? They don't even have to be an expert for you to learn from them! You just need to be willing to learn!

(Conversely, just because someone has been doing something for 25 years doesn't mean they are the person to listen to. Maybe they've been doing it wrong for 25 years because nobody ever bothered to tell them otherwise! How would you feel if you'd been doing something the same way for years and years because nobody ever told you it was the wrong way or an inefficient way or that there was a better way?)

It doesn't take a list of rules to follow - it just takes some common sense. Don't be hateful; offer helpful advise. That's it. We're all adults here (I'd even include the Teenage Woodworker in that category) - we should be able to figure out if the advice we're going to offer is constructive or not. If it isn't, keep it to yourself. If it is, then what's the harm in saying it?

I'll concede the point that there might be some woodworkers out there who are simply posting projects to brag about what they've done - and that's perfectly fine if they want to do that. However, I refuse to believe that is why EVERYONE posts projects. I think there are people out there who want to LEARN and GROW as woodworkers through peer review and evaluation. You can't do that if all anyone tells you is how great a job you're doing and nobody ever points out an aspect of your project that could use some improvement.

It seems like a lot of trouble to edit my own profile and say I want constructive advise and then to include that comment at the end of every project or else to indicate I DON'T want any criticism on each project and then make sure I check someone else's profile before I make a comment on it to be sure I don't ruffle any feathers or step on some sensitive toes.

Maybe we could clear it up with two areas of the website for posting projects - call one the "Brag Board" and the other the "Learning Board". If you just want to show pictures of your work, then post it on the Brag Board. If you want to show pictures of your work and get friendly advice or criticism from other woodworkers as to what you can do on future projects to improve, then post it on the Learning Board.

I've often felt that whole aspect of woodworking is left out of this site, much to the detriment of the majority of the members here. It was one of the first things I wrote about as a new Lumberjock over a year ago (Blog #63). I still feel the same way, but… I quickly realized it was a lost cause trying to get everyone to open up to the idea of learning through peer evaluation. Honestly, that makes me sad. Why would you not want to learn from others?

Personally, I want to grow as a woodworker. I want to improve my skills and knowledge base and I want to know when I'm doing something wrong or when I need to work on my design or technique. I post a project here and there when I feel like it (and remembered to take pictures), but more often than not I show my projects to friends of mine who are woodworkers and artists and have degrees in art and art history. I can get honest and helpful advice from them as to where I need to focus on improving my woodworking skills. And because I expect them to be critical of my piece, their praise on the parts I've done well carries a lot more weight, too.

 

Bravo Ethan!

I am new here. My profile says "I would like to get feedback about the designs and chronicle the building of the projects."

I meant it when I joined.

I don't have a text library of cut and paste praises.

When I was in college, we used to help each other study. If one of us didn't get it there was always someone who did. We looked at each others projects and picked the best parts for our own learning experience. that's what I want from a forum.

Websers definition of Forum → "a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas"

That's what it's all about.

 

That was a mouth-full Ethan….... and I agree with every word of it. When I discovered this site I knew that if I began posting projects there were going to be comments and not all would be good. I've only been woodworking a couple years. I'm a retired newspaper man… so you can imagine that I didn't get many good comments during those years. My grandfather told me a long time ago….. "if no one is complaining….... no one is reading the paper". Maybe that applies here too. I welcome comments…... but I think we all can do it in a way that helps, instead of hurts.

 

I really consider each and every one of you as a friend and I always try and welcome any critique as a learning experience. We learn something new everyday guys! But we all have to remember that there is "destructive critism" as well as "constructive critism". So we need to think about what we say before we hit the "Post this reply" button.

 

Well said Dadoo.

 

Just one more thing while all this is on my mind….......... What's up with these posts that are only two or three words when commenting on a project…..?

 

i dont care to post anything negative on anyones project and if i did it would be through a p m . 2 reasons .
if you pm someone and tell them about something that dosent look right or whatever the guy either considers it helpful and learns from it or is offended by it . either way it gets deleted . what you post on someones project page stays there . he might one day have the whole family over for thanksgiving and want to show them his page . i work sometimes for people who only own vacation homes here and have e mailed a link to my project page so they could look at some of my work or something similar to what they want done . so thers other things to consider when posting . personaly im with gary k if someone wants my help all they need to do is ask . some have and i gave it my very best

 

juniorjock , i think the short comment are about the time it takes to do an evaluation . when i joined i was welcomed by a bunch or folks . i felt i needed to give back by welcoming other folks , and i did every one . and also tried to comment on as many projects as i could . within two months i was coming home and finding two full pages of profiles of people that joined that day ! theres no way i can keep up even to just type welcome on each . and the projects are going by so fast now i dont even get to see some of them .

 

I see what you're saying mrtrim….. and by the way…. thanks for the welcome.

 

I had an on going e-mail correspondence with a saddle maker in Australia. he kept asking me questions about how to do things. I answered each one honestly. I didn't really think much of his work but didn't say anything. he sent over photos of a saddle he was really proud of. It had basket stamping running every which way. I wrote and suggested he might be happier with the next one if he got all his basketstamping running the same direction. End of conversation!!! I guess he didn't want any constructive criticism. As to the short compliments; the best compliment I ever received was "Pretty work!!". I just don't have time to be long winded. There are too many projects now.

 

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I'm still trying to digest all of it.

I don't want to discount the positive comments but for me they lose their luster after a while. When I posted my first project, I got a number of very nice positive comments and it felt great. I had confirmation that I was actually a woodworker and what I do is appreciated. As Sally Field said "You really like me".

After a while though, I noticed that all the projects were getting good reviews. So I got to thinking that if I'm going to get better, I could use some constructive feedback and that led me to my post today. BTW - It still feels good to get the positive comments. So don't let up on the positive stuff.

One thing I had NOT considered was the issue that mrtrim brought up about this going "on your permanent record". I would NOT like that. I want to get the feedback, apply it or ignore it and then burn the constructive criticism. Don't know how we could do that. The private message would work but I think there is value in an open discussion as well.

Maybe we could have these discussions in the forum section and NOT in the projects area. We could create a forum just for Critiques and Constructive Criticism. This forum could be for members only and we could still send our friends and family to the public projects area.

It is clear from the posts that this is a very personal choice and critiques and criticism should only be offered to those that specifically ask for it.

Thanks again for all you comments.

 

Leon,

I think the guidelines in your OP are real good and should work quite well if that's how it ws done.

When I read your original post, I related back to a friend of mine who created the acronym "NPGJ"
for the Penturners forum because all folks were telling one another was just that-Nice Pen, good job.
He, and I, wanted constructive criticism so we could grow our talents.

I don't post much here but I usually ask for comments and criticism when I do.
If someone asks for constructive advice, I'd offer it IF I have something constructive to offer.

Cheers,
Gary

 

the same discussion has taken place many times in the photography world.
For me, it just made sense to post a statement with your project: Constructive Criticism welcome!
Then we know; we don't have to remember who just wants to post for their own goals, or those who just want kudos, or those who want to learn from others….

 

MsDebbieP, I agree. "critiques and criticism should only be offered to those that specifically ask for it."

I think that mrtrim had a very good point, however, about NOT wanting these critiques and criticisms included with your project ( so your friends, family, and customers don't have to see it).

I think I'll experiment with a post in a forum asking for a critique of one of my projects and see what happens.