I want my dust collector to run when I start a wood working tool. I thought about using a current sensor as a trigger device and want to locate the current sensor in the circuit breaker panel. I have 9 woodworking tools that are on their own dedicated circuits. They are a mixture of 120v and 240v. Can more than one circuit pass through a current sensor? I want to mount 1 current sensor on each side of the 250a circuit breaker panel. Worst case is that I need 9 current sensors. The part I'm not sure about is what type of device can control the current sensors and then trigger a relay that starts the dust collector. I want the relay to have a built-in 'delay off' because my dust collector manufacturer does not recommend power cycling the collector more than 6 times an hour. The dust collector is 3hp @ 16a. Has anyone figured this out? BTW, my dust collector came with a wireless remote but I want a better solution.
jiim
Have you looked in to these?
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2080165/28298/ivac-automated-shop-vacuum-switch.aspx
I have a very small shop (12×18) and I use this switch for my table saw, jointer, and router table. It works great and does what it says it does.
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2080165/28298/ivac-automated-shop-vacuum-switch.aspx
I have a very small shop (12×18) and I use this switch for my table saw, jointer, and router table. It works great and does what it says it does.
There was a Fine Woodworking article called "Dust Detector" that does most of what you need. Google it - I found the PDF out there somewhere. It answers most of your questions.
The part I'm not sure about is what type of device can control the current sensors… Commercial current sensors are available that will drive a power relay directly. They are available from Grainger.
Can more than one circuit pass through a current sensor? Yes - the "hot" lead from each tool can be passed through the current sensor ring. The sensitivity on commercial current sensors will probably have to be set for the lowest current tool you have. The author of the article above says that he could get up to 6 leads through the current sensing ring.
I want the relay to have a built-in 'delay off'… They make adjustable time delay relays that do this - also available from Grainger.
In short, everything you need to do this is available off-the-shelf from Grainger. If you can handle shop wiring, you can probably handle this. Reference the article above to get an idea of how the wiring is done.
I do electronics so I rolled my own using a simple current transformer, some electronics and a solid-state relay to do this for dust collection on my miter saw. Now, every time I fire up the miter saw it powers up a small shop vac for dust collection. Very slick.
The part I'm not sure about is what type of device can control the current sensors… Commercial current sensors are available that will drive a power relay directly. They are available from Grainger.
Can more than one circuit pass through a current sensor? Yes - the "hot" lead from each tool can be passed through the current sensor ring. The sensitivity on commercial current sensors will probably have to be set for the lowest current tool you have. The author of the article above says that he could get up to 6 leads through the current sensing ring.
I want the relay to have a built-in 'delay off'… They make adjustable time delay relays that do this - also available from Grainger.
In short, everything you need to do this is available off-the-shelf from Grainger. If you can handle shop wiring, you can probably handle this. Reference the article above to get an idea of how the wiring is done.
I do electronics so I rolled my own using a simple current transformer, some electronics and a solid-state relay to do this for dust collection on my miter saw. Now, every time I fire up the miter saw it powers up a small shop vac for dust collection. Very slick.
I have a wireless remote with my dust collector. I don't find pushing a button to be that much hassle. Now opening and closing every blast gate I do get tired of…....................
Thanks everyone for the replies.
DouginVa, the iVAC Automated Shop Vacuum Switch will only handle 1 woodworking tool per dust collector so it won't work so well for me. I do have several of DCG's i-Socket which I believe work on the same principal as the iVAC Automated Shop Vacuum Switch.
EEngineer, I have a hardcopy of Fine Woodworking article called "Dust Detector". The article did an excellent job of outlining how to set this up. That's where I got the idea to use a current sensor but the author only showed one tool outlet.
I just reread the article and my original take on the current sensor was that they were commenting on the size of the donut and not if you could pass multiple circuits through it.
I contacted a sales rep earlier this week for an ac current sensor I found online. He thought you could only pass 1 'hot' circuit wire through the current sensor at a time because it would cause a false reading.
Since the current sensor is only detecting amperage, could both 120v and 240v 'hot' wires pass through the donut of the current sensor?
I want to mount 1 current sensor on each side of the circuit breaker panel. Would I need a 2PST relay for the current sensors? If both current sensors were to trigger the relay at the same time would the relay contacts bounce?
I been researching relays with built-in 'delay off' but most of them are rated for 15a or less. I will keep looking.
Redryder, I setup my blast gates to open when I turn on a tool and close when the tool is off. I use a pneumatic cylinder to open/close the blast gate and pneumatic solenoid wired between the on/off switch and the motor of my 240v tools. I use the i-Socket for the 120v tools. The blast gates are still a work in progress but I'm pretty close to completion.
DouginVa, the iVAC Automated Shop Vacuum Switch will only handle 1 woodworking tool per dust collector so it won't work so well for me. I do have several of DCG's i-Socket which I believe work on the same principal as the iVAC Automated Shop Vacuum Switch.
EEngineer, I have a hardcopy of Fine Woodworking article called "Dust Detector". The article did an excellent job of outlining how to set this up. That's where I got the idea to use a current sensor but the author only showed one tool outlet.
I just reread the article and my original take on the current sensor was that they were commenting on the size of the donut and not if you could pass multiple circuits through it.
I contacted a sales rep earlier this week for an ac current sensor I found online. He thought you could only pass 1 'hot' circuit wire through the current sensor at a time because it would cause a false reading.
Since the current sensor is only detecting amperage, could both 120v and 240v 'hot' wires pass through the donut of the current sensor?
I want to mount 1 current sensor on each side of the circuit breaker panel. Would I need a 2PST relay for the current sensors? If both current sensors were to trigger the relay at the same time would the relay contacts bounce?
I been researching relays with built-in 'delay off' but most of them are rated for 15a or less. I will keep looking.
Redryder, I setup my blast gates to open when I turn on a tool and close when the tool is off. I use a pneumatic cylinder to open/close the blast gate and pneumatic solenoid wired between the on/off switch and the motor of my 240v tools. I use the i-Socket for the 120v tools. The blast gates are still a work in progress but I'm pretty close to completion.
I just reread the article and my original take on the current sensor was that they were commenting on the size of the donut and not if you could pass multiple circuits through it.
Well, he was. The limitation is physical: you can't get more than 6 wires through the little hole. But, and I quote from the article: One hot wire from each tool that is connected to a dust collector runs through the sensor. So he is suggesting exactly what I was - multiple "hots" through the current sensor, any one of which can turn on the DC when switched ON.
I contacted a sales rep earlier this week for an ac current sensor I found online. He thought you could only pass 1 'hot' circuit wire through the current sensor at a time because it would cause a false reading.
Well, yes and no… the current sensor sense the magnetic field surrounding a wire carrying current. If the other wires are connected to load then, yes, they would rob some of the magnetic field from the current-carrying wire. But that's not how things are usually wired. There is almost always a switch at the machine to turn it ON or OFF, so the other wires would not be connected to the load. The only time it might be a problem is if you use the breaker in the box to turn the machine ON or OFF and don't include a switch out at the tool.
Now, another case is if you have two machines ON at one time. In this case the magnetic fields would actually add. If both machines that are ON are on the same 110 line, then all is well, you actually see the sum of both currents. If they are on opposite poles of the 220 line, then you would see the difference of the two currents and it might not be enough to trip the current sensor. That's because US power system has two 110 volt circuits 180 degrees out of phase. Read on to the discussion below about two current sensors - that would actually solve some of these problems.
For exactly the same reason, you only run one leg of the power out to the tool through the current sensor. Let us suppose that you ran both the "hot" and "neutral" wires for a 110 volt tool through the current sensor. The hot would generate a magnetic field due to the current going out to the tool. The neutral would generate a magnetic field due to the current returning from the tool. Currents flowing in opposite directions generate magnetic fields in opposite directions and they sum to zero so the current sensor would see no current.
Since the current sensor is only detecting amperage, could both 120v and 240v 'hot' wires pass through the donut of the current sensor?
Yes.
I want to mount 1 current sensor on each side of the circuit breaker panel. Would I need a 2PST relay for the current sensors? If both current sensors were to trigger the relay at the same time would the relay contacts bounce?
Actually, mounting two separate current sensors, one on each 110V leg, would solve the multiple machine ON problem I mentioned above. Note that the article I referenced does not control the current going to the tool. Instead, it is used to switch power to a contactor (big ol' relay) that actually switches the power to the dust collector. I don't think there is a current sensor made that can handle the 20A-30A continuous required by larger DC's. In this case I would just wire the two current sensors in parallel - either one can supply the current to the contactor coil while the other would just be off.
Now, think through your current sense and wiring in the circuit breaker panel. If you are monitoring all current through the panel by placing the current sensors on the mains and your dust collector is on one circuit in that panel, what happens? Well, you turn on a tool, which causes the dust collector to turn on. The dust collector draws current through the current sensor too. Therefore the current through the dust collector will keep it turned ON!! You will never be able to turn it off! DAMHIKT. Similarly, I don't think you want just turning the shop lights on to run the dust collector.
Your best bet is not to monitor the mains (it seemed like that was where you were going). Instead, monitor the output of the breakers. As I mentioned above, I see no problem monitoring several circuits by running multiple wires through the current sensor. I would use two current sensors and make sure that all circuits on the same pole are on the same current sensor. Run separate breakers that are NOT run through the current sensors for the DC, lights and any tools that you do NOT want to activate the DC.
I been researching relays with built-in 'delay off' but most of them are rated for 15a or less. I will keep looking.
See discussion above about a separate contactor to supply the DC. The time delay relay should not really be supplying current to the DC. Instead, you use it to supply current to the contactor coil - much, much less than the current required by the DC. Think a little more… the time delay relay cannot provide power it isn't getting. Time Delay realys that have a power OFF delay require a separate connection to the power line to properly delay power OFF.
Hope this wasn't confusing. This post ended up a lot longer than I intended!
Well, he was. The limitation is physical: you can't get more than 6 wires through the little hole. But, and I quote from the article: One hot wire from each tool that is connected to a dust collector runs through the sensor. So he is suggesting exactly what I was - multiple "hots" through the current sensor, any one of which can turn on the DC when switched ON.
I contacted a sales rep earlier this week for an ac current sensor I found online. He thought you could only pass 1 'hot' circuit wire through the current sensor at a time because it would cause a false reading.
Well, yes and no… the current sensor sense the magnetic field surrounding a wire carrying current. If the other wires are connected to load then, yes, they would rob some of the magnetic field from the current-carrying wire. But that's not how things are usually wired. There is almost always a switch at the machine to turn it ON or OFF, so the other wires would not be connected to the load. The only time it might be a problem is if you use the breaker in the box to turn the machine ON or OFF and don't include a switch out at the tool.
Now, another case is if you have two machines ON at one time. In this case the magnetic fields would actually add. If both machines that are ON are on the same 110 line, then all is well, you actually see the sum of both currents. If they are on opposite poles of the 220 line, then you would see the difference of the two currents and it might not be enough to trip the current sensor. That's because US power system has two 110 volt circuits 180 degrees out of phase. Read on to the discussion below about two current sensors - that would actually solve some of these problems.
For exactly the same reason, you only run one leg of the power out to the tool through the current sensor. Let us suppose that you ran both the "hot" and "neutral" wires for a 110 volt tool through the current sensor. The hot would generate a magnetic field due to the current going out to the tool. The neutral would generate a magnetic field due to the current returning from the tool. Currents flowing in opposite directions generate magnetic fields in opposite directions and they sum to zero so the current sensor would see no current.
Since the current sensor is only detecting amperage, could both 120v and 240v 'hot' wires pass through the donut of the current sensor?
Yes.
I want to mount 1 current sensor on each side of the circuit breaker panel. Would I need a 2PST relay for the current sensors? If both current sensors were to trigger the relay at the same time would the relay contacts bounce?
Actually, mounting two separate current sensors, one on each 110V leg, would solve the multiple machine ON problem I mentioned above. Note that the article I referenced does not control the current going to the tool. Instead, it is used to switch power to a contactor (big ol' relay) that actually switches the power to the dust collector. I don't think there is a current sensor made that can handle the 20A-30A continuous required by larger DC's. In this case I would just wire the two current sensors in parallel - either one can supply the current to the contactor coil while the other would just be off.
Now, think through your current sense and wiring in the circuit breaker panel. If you are monitoring all current through the panel by placing the current sensors on the mains and your dust collector is on one circuit in that panel, what happens? Well, you turn on a tool, which causes the dust collector to turn on. The dust collector draws current through the current sensor too. Therefore the current through the dust collector will keep it turned ON!! You will never be able to turn it off! DAMHIKT. Similarly, I don't think you want just turning the shop lights on to run the dust collector.
Your best bet is not to monitor the mains (it seemed like that was where you were going). Instead, monitor the output of the breakers. As I mentioned above, I see no problem monitoring several circuits by running multiple wires through the current sensor. I would use two current sensors and make sure that all circuits on the same pole are on the same current sensor. Run separate breakers that are NOT run through the current sensors for the DC, lights and any tools that you do NOT want to activate the DC.
I been researching relays with built-in 'delay off' but most of them are rated for 15a or less. I will keep looking.
See discussion above about a separate contactor to supply the DC. The time delay relay should not really be supplying current to the DC. Instead, you use it to supply current to the contactor coil - much, much less than the current required by the DC. Think a little more… the time delay relay cannot provide power it isn't getting. Time Delay realys that have a power OFF delay require a separate connection to the power line to properly delay power OFF.
Hope this wasn't confusing. This post ended up a lot longer than I intended!
I take it I confused you…
Add me to your "buddies list" Send me a message through the Lumberjocks message system.
Add me to your "buddies list" Send me a message through the Lumberjocks message system.
Hook up to your blast gates: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/longrangermultigatesystem220v.aspx
jiim…...this will do what you want it to do, is plug and play adn the company supporting it is absolutely first rate:
http://www.ivacswitch.com/default.action?itemid=3
look at the ivac PRO system. controls 110 and 220 tools from 110 adn 220 tools. like douginva, i use the ivac switch, but the PRO series will accomodate your specifications.
http://www.ivacswitch.com/default.action?itemid=3
look at the ivac PRO system. controls 110 and 220 tools from 110 adn 220 tools. like douginva, i use the ivac switch, but the PRO series will accomodate your specifications.
I use the PennStateIndustries remote switched gates (called the remote commander I think). Anyways, when you open a blast gate it trips a small switch which is wired to the outlet relay. Open the port the DC comes on, close it it goes off. I have had the 110 version and it worked great. I now have the 220 version and it too works great.
Maybe not enough posts yet? I'm not sure, but welcome to LJ! You can run multiple circuits through a current sensor. I have done it lots of times and never had a problem picking up any the the circuits when they energized.
If you do the mains, you will probably need to have an adjustable sensor that has a range that allows you to accommodate the lights ect.
If you do the mains, you will probably need to have an adjustable sensor that has a range that allows you to accommodate the lights ect.
I want to mount 1 current sensor on each side of the circuit breaker panel. I'll call the current sensor on the left side of the panel sensor 'A' and the current sensor on the right side of the panel sensor 'B'.
Current sensor 'A' has the following: (voltage + amp draw - breaker)
TableSaw 240v
8.5a 20a breaker
BandSaw 240v@ 7a 20a breaker
Sander 240v@ 14a 20a breaker
Current sensor 'B' has the following: (voltage + amp draw - breaker)
BandSaw 240v
13a 20a breaker
ChopSaw 120v@ 15a 20a breaker
Router 120v@ 15a 20a breaker
*Only the 'Hot' wire of the tool will pass through the current sensor
Does the current sensor need to handle the highest amp rated tool or would I need to add up the amps for all tools in one current sensor in case one or more tools are turned on?
Can the 240v circuits cancel each other out if they are on the same current sensor? Can the 120v circuits cancel each other out?
Can the current sensors be wired parallel to a relay even if the current sensor input is 120v ac? The current sensor input drives the relay will starts the dust collector.
If it's possible to wire the current sensors in parallel then it might be easier to buy 8 of the current sensors in the link below and wire them parallel to a relay.
http://www.magnelab.com/products/Current-Voltage-Sensors/split-core-ac-current-sensor-sct-0400
Sorry about the long post.
Current sensor 'A' has the following: (voltage + amp draw - breaker)
TableSaw 240v
Code:
24a 30a breaker
Jointer 240vBandSaw 240v@ 7a 20a breaker
Sander 240v@ 14a 20a breaker
Current sensor 'B' has the following: (voltage + amp draw - breaker)
BandSaw 240v
Code:
21a 30a breaker<br />Planer 240vChopSaw 120v@ 15a 20a breaker
Router 120v@ 15a 20a breaker
- All the above tools are own dedicated circuit with their own circuit breaker.
*Only the 'Hot' wire of the tool will pass through the current sensor
- The 240v tools only have 1 hot wire running through the current sensor so technically its 120v.
Does the current sensor need to handle the highest amp rated tool or would I need to add up the amps for all tools in one current sensor in case one or more tools are turned on?
Can the 240v circuits cancel each other out if they are on the same current sensor? Can the 120v circuits cancel each other out?
Can the current sensors be wired parallel to a relay even if the current sensor input is 120v ac? The current sensor input drives the relay will starts the dust collector.
If it's possible to wire the current sensors in parallel then it might be easier to buy 8 of the current sensors in the link below and wire them parallel to a relay.
http://www.magnelab.com/products/Current-Voltage-Sensors/split-core-ac-current-sensor-sct-0400
Sorry about the long post.
Looks to me like one current sensor on "B" would do the job. That should get all your 240s plus your 2 120s.
It needs to handle the highest amperage, but have the lowest within its range of operation.
If they are wired in parallel, any of them will start the relay to the DC.
The sensors in your link will not work unless you are going to get into electronic circuits.
A simple relay closure will start your DC relay. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/JOHNSON-CONTROLS-Current-Sensing-Switch-36P568?Pid=search
Note this device has a low voltage, low amp contact rating. You need to use a 24 VAC circuit to power the relay that starts your DC. It needs to be wired to line voltage (120/240) standards, not low voltage cable standards.
It needs to handle the highest amperage, but have the lowest within its range of operation.
If they are wired in parallel, any of them will start the relay to the DC.
The sensors in your link will not work unless you are going to get into electronic circuits.
A simple relay closure will start your DC relay. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/JOHNSON-CONTROLS-Current-Sensing-Switch-36P568?Pid=search
Note this device has a low voltage, low amp contact rating. You need to use a 24 VAC circuit to power the relay that starts your DC. It needs to be wired to line voltage (120/240) standards, not low voltage cable standards.
jiim- go to the page of the person you want to add and they will have "add to buddies" under their avatar.
Sorry, overtime at work lately so I haven't been checking in.
Looks like Topamax has been picking up my slack.
Just a coupla comments:
The sensor Topamax listed is rated at 30VAC max. You would have to include a 24VAC transformer and 24VAC coil contactor to switch on the DC.
I am more familiar with this kind of sensor (also from Grainger):
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Relay-15V827?cmsp=IO--IDP--BTMBTB05209020&cm_vc=IDPBBZ2
These are available in 24VAC, 120VAC and 240VAC models, price is similar. They might save you the transformer. Note that these devices actually include a small rely with SPDT contacts. You can wire them in parallel and it is exactly like wiring two switches in parallel.
Can the 240v circuits cancel each other out if they are on the same current sensor?
No.
Can the 120v circuits cancel each other out?
Yes. This is why you might want two sensors. If they are on opposite poles of the 240V (usually on US wiring, one pole is RED, one is BLK and neutral is WHT. You get 120V from RED to WHT, 120 from BLK to WHT and 240V from RED to BLK). If you have two 120V tools running through the same sensor, one from RED to WHT and one from BLK to WHT, the current the sensor sees will be the difference between these two currents. If you have two 120V tools running through the same sensor, both from RED to WHT, the current the sensor sees will be the sum of these two currents. If you have two 120V tools running through the same sensor, both from BLK to WHT, the current the sensor sees will be the sum of these two currents.
Looks like Topamax has been picking up my slack.
Just a coupla comments:
The sensor Topamax listed is rated at 30VAC max. You would have to include a 24VAC transformer and 24VAC coil contactor to switch on the DC.
I am more familiar with this kind of sensor (also from Grainger):
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Relay-15V827?cmsp=IO--IDP--BTMBTB05209020&cm_vc=IDPBBZ2
These are available in 24VAC, 120VAC and 240VAC models, price is similar. They might save you the transformer. Note that these devices actually include a small rely with SPDT contacts. You can wire them in parallel and it is exactly like wiring two switches in parallel.
Can the 240v circuits cancel each other out if they are on the same current sensor?
No.
Can the 120v circuits cancel each other out?
Yes. This is why you might want two sensors. If they are on opposite poles of the 240V (usually on US wiring, one pole is RED, one is BLK and neutral is WHT. You get 120V from RED to WHT, 120 from BLK to WHT and 240V from RED to BLK). If you have two 120V tools running through the same sensor, one from RED to WHT and one from BLK to WHT, the current the sensor sees will be the difference between these two currents. If you have two 120V tools running through the same sensor, both from RED to WHT, the current the sensor sees will be the sum of these two currents. If you have two 120V tools running through the same sensor, both from BLK to WHT, the current the sensor sees will be the sum of these two currents.
I have done this an easier way.I just disconected the magnetic switches from the front of the both large dust extractors which do my saw on behind and another collecting from the overhead top guard.I rewired both to switch on with a front mounted switch which I have screwed to the front of my saw.Easy and works great. Alistair
If anyone is attempting to replicate my dust collector automation project, here is where I am today. My requirements are: (1) utilize 120v or 240v in the current sensors and relays - I prefer not to add transformers into the mix. (2) Place the current sensors in the circuit breaker panel - I don't want to run additional wiring to each blast gate or tool. I have limited space in the circuit breaker panel so the size of the current sensor has to be considered. (3) Configure the relay that drives the dust collector with a 'delay off' so the dust collector will run for a minimum of 10 minutes each time a tool is turned on.
The August 2000 issue of Fine Woodworking article called "Dust Detector" used a current sensor with model # TCSHAA. I did a quick Google and the current sensor lists for about $55 today. If I used the TCSHAA, I could locate the current sensors at the bottom of the circuit breaker panel but I would have to rewire all the circuits. The existing wiring is not long enough to stretch down to the bottom of the breaker panel and then back up to the breaker.
The current sensor in the Fine Woodworking article is also called a self powered GO/NO-GO current status switch and acts as a simple on/off switch. Both EEngineer and TopamaxSurvivor were trying to explain this but I was over analyzing there explanations.
http://www.controlconsultantsonline.com/C-1220HV--SENVA-High-Voltage-Mini-Solid-Core-Adjustable-Pre-Set-Current-Switch-High-Voltage_p_684.html. The downside is that you can only pass one 10g wire or two 12g wires through the sensor but the current sensor is super compact. As a bonus, the cost is reasonable.
I found an adjustable compact equivalent of the TCSHAA. Here is a link:
I'm still trying to find a DPST 'delay off' relay that can handle 20a contacts. The coil should be rated for 120v @ .2a. I want the 'delay off' timer to begin once the tool is turned on. The relay should de-energize either after 10 minutes or when the tool is turned off - whichever is greater.
Where would I wire in the relay to my dust collector's magnetic starter? Here is a link to magnetic starter. Go to page 20 of the PDF. http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/Super%20Gorilla%20combined%20owners%20manual%202011.pdf.
Sorry about long post.
The August 2000 issue of Fine Woodworking article called "Dust Detector" used a current sensor with model # TCSHAA. I did a quick Google and the current sensor lists for about $55 today. If I used the TCSHAA, I could locate the current sensors at the bottom of the circuit breaker panel but I would have to rewire all the circuits. The existing wiring is not long enough to stretch down to the bottom of the breaker panel and then back up to the breaker.
The current sensor in the Fine Woodworking article is also called a self powered GO/NO-GO current status switch and acts as a simple on/off switch. Both EEngineer and TopamaxSurvivor were trying to explain this but I was over analyzing there explanations.
http://www.controlconsultantsonline.com/C-1220HV--SENVA-High-Voltage-Mini-Solid-Core-Adjustable-Pre-Set-Current-Switch-High-Voltage_p_684.html. The downside is that you can only pass one 10g wire or two 12g wires through the sensor but the current sensor is super compact. As a bonus, the cost is reasonable.
I found an adjustable compact equivalent of the TCSHAA. Here is a link:
I'm still trying to find a DPST 'delay off' relay that can handle 20a contacts. The coil should be rated for 120v @ .2a. I want the 'delay off' timer to begin once the tool is turned on. The relay should de-energize either after 10 minutes or when the tool is turned off - whichever is greater.
Where would I wire in the relay to my dust collector's magnetic starter? Here is a link to magnetic starter. Go to page 20 of the PDF. http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/Super%20Gorilla%20combined%20owners%20manual%202011.pdf.
Sorry about long post.
This may be beyond simple DYI? You need to remove the stop/start buttons and the holding contact wiring. Your new on /off contact will connect where the stop button was connected before.
That's a pretty sweet little current sensor at $21.5 apiece. I bookmarked that for future use.
Now, as far as your dust collector's magnetic starter goes…
Note that they are showing the connection to a remote radio-controlled starter. I found their diagram confusing. Ignore the radio controlled remote starter connections shown. What you want to be concerned with are four terminals - the ones marked "Remote ON" and "Remote OFF". These probably come to screw terminals in the dust collector's control box and are intended for a remote starter switch assembly similar to the one on the dust collector itself with a green start button and a red stop button.Note that they are wired in with the switches on the dust collector itself (marked 1 and 0 on the diagram). The Remote start button is wired in parallel with the start button (1) on the dust collector while the remote stop button is wired in series with the stop button (0) on the dust collector. If you do not have a remote switch the Remote OFF terminals probably have a jumper wired across the remote OFF connection or the unit won't work.
Now, what you want to do is provide switch contacts that replicate the remote start and stop switch functions. The start button is a set of NO (Normally Open) contacts that are closed momentarily to activate the unit. Once closed, the contactor (basically a contactor is just a big ol' honking relay whose contacts handle the high current to the motor) activates and a set of contacts on the contactor holds the connection across the start contacts (this is connection points 13 & 14 on your circuit diagram) so you can release the start button and the unit will continue to run. The stop button is set of NC (Normally Closed) contacts that, when opened, break the connection to the contactor coill and removes power to the unit.
Note that both of these buttons only have to handle the current through the contactor coil. They do not have to handle the current through the dust collector motor - the contactor handles that current. So I don't understand your comment I'm still trying to find a DPST 'delay off' relay that can handle 20a contacts. It isn't necessary.
Your current sensors can provide a contact for the Remote ON switch function. When current is detected, the contacts should close. They will stay closed as long as current is detected. Due to the holding contact from the contactor, the dust collector will continue to run even after the current sensor stops detecting current.
Here is a quick summary of time delay relay functions from Magnecraft (see page 3). You don't necessarily have to use a Magnecraft unit, but this is a good summary of the functions available in time delay relays.
A time delay relay can provide the Remote OFF contacts. Use an OFF Delay type. When current is detected and the current sensor turns on, it should also provide the trigger signal to the relay. The relay will immediately turn on, closing the Remote OFF contacts and allowing the dust collector to start (presuming the current sensor also drives the Remote ON contact as stated above). When the current sensor no longer detects current, it will open the Remote ON contact. The time delay relay will continue to keep the Remote OFF contacts closed for some time, however, keeping the dust collector running. After the time delay, the contact will open, breaking the Remote OFF connection and stopping the dust collector.
Sorry for the long post. I hope this was clear.
Now, as far as your dust collector's magnetic starter goes…
Note that they are showing the connection to a remote radio-controlled starter. I found their diagram confusing. Ignore the radio controlled remote starter connections shown. What you want to be concerned with are four terminals - the ones marked "Remote ON" and "Remote OFF". These probably come to screw terminals in the dust collector's control box and are intended for a remote starter switch assembly similar to the one on the dust collector itself with a green start button and a red stop button.Note that they are wired in with the switches on the dust collector itself (marked 1 and 0 on the diagram). The Remote start button is wired in parallel with the start button (1) on the dust collector while the remote stop button is wired in series with the stop button (0) on the dust collector. If you do not have a remote switch the Remote OFF terminals probably have a jumper wired across the remote OFF connection or the unit won't work.
Now, what you want to do is provide switch contacts that replicate the remote start and stop switch functions. The start button is a set of NO (Normally Open) contacts that are closed momentarily to activate the unit. Once closed, the contactor (basically a contactor is just a big ol' honking relay whose contacts handle the high current to the motor) activates and a set of contacts on the contactor holds the connection across the start contacts (this is connection points 13 & 14 on your circuit diagram) so you can release the start button and the unit will continue to run. The stop button is set of NC (Normally Closed) contacts that, when opened, break the connection to the contactor coill and removes power to the unit.
Note that both of these buttons only have to handle the current through the contactor coil. They do not have to handle the current through the dust collector motor - the contactor handles that current. So I don't understand your comment I'm still trying to find a DPST 'delay off' relay that can handle 20a contacts. It isn't necessary.
Your current sensors can provide a contact for the Remote ON switch function. When current is detected, the contacts should close. They will stay closed as long as current is detected. Due to the holding contact from the contactor, the dust collector will continue to run even after the current sensor stops detecting current.
Here is a quick summary of time delay relay functions from Magnecraft (see page 3). You don't necessarily have to use a Magnecraft unit, but this is a good summary of the functions available in time delay relays.
A time delay relay can provide the Remote OFF contacts. Use an OFF Delay type. When current is detected and the current sensor turns on, it should also provide the trigger signal to the relay. The relay will immediately turn on, closing the Remote OFF contacts and allowing the dust collector to start (presuming the current sensor also drives the Remote ON contact as stated above). When the current sensor no longer detects current, it will open the Remote ON contact. The time delay relay will continue to keep the Remote OFF contacts closed for some time, however, keeping the dust collector running. After the time delay, the contact will open, breaking the Remote OFF connection and stopping the dust collector.
Sorry for the long post. I hope this was clear.
EE, I believe this is going to get unnecessarily complicated ;-))
I just took a look at the sensor. It says digital, but it seems to have an output, it is not a dry contact closure. It will not operate the motor contractor directly.
If the current sensor is going to operate the system per as the original plan, a split core sensor that snaps on to the incoming line will be the way to do it. That will pick up all the desired equipment when they start.
Unless a neutral is added to the system, all relays and control devices will need to be 240 volt.
The magnetic holding contact needs to be eliminated. A suitable current sensor will most likely have a a single dry contact. In that case, if the holding circuit remains intact, a 2 pole interface relay will need to be added to start the DC motor starter as well as a second contact for the OFF DELAY relay trigger circuit. The simplest way to go about it is to eliminate the 3 wire control and just go with 2 wire control rather than trying to interface the 2 systems.
The simple way will be using the current sensor DRY CONTACT to trigger the OFF DELAY TRIGGER circuit. That will operate the motor starter coil. Remember the off delay relay need to be 240 v and it needs to have 240 volt rated contacts.
PS. This is why I charge more if the customer wants to help. Takes longer to explain than to do it ;-))
I just took a look at the sensor. It says digital, but it seems to have an output, it is not a dry contact closure. It will not operate the motor contractor directly.
If the current sensor is going to operate the system per as the original plan, a split core sensor that snaps on to the incoming line will be the way to do it. That will pick up all the desired equipment when they start.
Unless a neutral is added to the system, all relays and control devices will need to be 240 volt.
The magnetic holding contact needs to be eliminated. A suitable current sensor will most likely have a a single dry contact. In that case, if the holding circuit remains intact, a 2 pole interface relay will need to be added to start the DC motor starter as well as a second contact for the OFF DELAY relay trigger circuit. The simplest way to go about it is to eliminate the 3 wire control and just go with 2 wire control rather than trying to interface the 2 systems.
The simple way will be using the current sensor DRY CONTACT to trigger the OFF DELAY TRIGGER circuit. That will operate the motor starter coil. Remember the off delay relay need to be 240 v and it needs to have 240 volt rated contacts.
PS. This is why I charge more if the customer wants to help. Takes longer to explain than to do it ;-))
BTW, I forgot to mention one reason the Oneida wiring diagram is so confusing is that it will not work as drawn.
The connection between terminals 13 and 95 with the brown wires to the remote N/C stop contact bypasses the manual stop button; sooooooooo…....., once started, neither stop will work. The system will never stop until the power is disconnected from the motor starter. ;-))
The connection between terminals 13 and 95 with the brown wires to the remote N/C stop contact bypasses the manual stop button; sooooooooo…....., once started, neither stop will work. The system will never stop until the power is disconnected from the motor starter. ;-))
Topamax -
No, there are two brown wires from the wireless remote. They are clearly labeled as a NC contact for the stop function. However, the wiring still didn't make sense to me so I discounted it. Maybe a mistake in the manual? Or maybe more information about the wireless control is needed.
As far as eliminating the magnetic holding contact… no. What I described is about the simplest way he could accomplish what he wanted (i.e. turn on with current sensing and a delay after current off). It would require no rewiring at the magnetic safety switch and connections only to what is already provided for Remote ON/OFF switches. Dry contacts are best, but an SSR would work just fine on the current sensor or time delay relay. Yes, they both must be rated at 250VAC. The cheaper unit he referenced is rated only at 30VAC or 120VAC.
I have been doing this a long time. I could have this wired up and running to prove the concept in about 15 minutes.
No, there are two brown wires from the wireless remote. They are clearly labeled as a NC contact for the stop function. However, the wiring still didn't make sense to me so I discounted it. Maybe a mistake in the manual? Or maybe more information about the wireless control is needed.
As far as eliminating the magnetic holding contact… no. What I described is about the simplest way he could accomplish what he wanted (i.e. turn on with current sensing and a delay after current off). It would require no rewiring at the magnetic safety switch and connections only to what is already provided for Remote ON/OFF switches. Dry contacts are best, but an SSR would work just fine on the current sensor or time delay relay. Yes, they both must be rated at 250VAC. The cheaper unit he referenced is rated only at 30VAC or 120VAC.
I have been doing this a long time. I could have this wired up and running to prove the concept in about 15 minutes.
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