[TheFridge]

Starts at 3% up to 8% percent if he has his way or it's widely accepted.

They should be able to sell their saws for less than 25% of a cost increase he says. A 20% increase in cost puts the unisaw 50$ more per Amazon.

The very first article in the reference section is a bunch of he said she said crap. It could go either way. Go ahead. Believe a lawyer 100%.

"There may be other systems that could be used to satisfy the proposed standard." Like bosch's? Who is getting sued by sawstop?

Does the PTI have any blame to take? Yep. In my eyes it's simple economics. Why build a saw with the same quality and specs if yours could potentially cost the same or a lot more? I

This whole "champion of safety" is crap and we all know it. Some will buy it and some won't.

Maybe you need protection from yourself. I don't. But if I had the money I'd buy it. If they were equal and a unisaw cost the same as a sawstop id go unisaw all day just because of the owner.

In the end, the market needs to determine what the market wants. He's trying to use his patent for all its worth. Good for him. Doesn't mean everybody has to like it.

 

[TarHeelz]

If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies that license mandatory safety devices to other companies, we are going to find ourselves with a smaller selection of cars to buy.

If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies run by profit-hungry CEOs, we are going to be holding an empty basket at the checkout line.

SawStop's biggest mistake was picking a fight against far bigger companies before it was even large enough to have a decent Public Relations department.

 

[RobS888]

And really it doesn't matter if it is justified or not. Just that they did it.

Wow… is your world view really that monochromatic?

A twisted ankle is not even close to what a table saw accident can do.

Hmmm… that would seem counter to your doesen t matter why statement above. Apparently your monochromatic view is very selective

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

I think you are confused. I'm pointing out that many companies have sought and received government help that massively affects their market. If you want to get stuck on particulars feel free.

Find an analogy that matches a table saw accident?

 

[RobS888]

The Harley thing was what it was back then.
The SS thing is what it is now.
In these days of zero personal responsibility, you are presented the hot dog saw. For your own good!
Want some real sport-try an industrial grade shaper.

- unbob

So time is the determinant?

 

[RobS888]

I believe it s called an analogy. Not just anal.

Edit: the name of the post is "why do you hate sawstop?"

So far, the vast majority don t feel they need it -or- they don t like the tactics of the owner (which is all well documented)

Most of what I ve seen has absolutely nothing to do with the fact they hate the blade brake, it s the fact that the owner is a douche. Again, well documented. We may not know all the facts but when the question of "why do you hate sawstop" is asked, the political side of it comes up more than people not liking the tech.

- TheFridge

I don't see that the majority don't want it, not even the majority of posters don't want it. We have to count posters not posts, because some of us have dozens of posts, but just one opinion.

 

[RobS888]

In the end, the market needs to determine what the market wants. He s trying to use his patent for all its worth. Good for him. Doesn t mean everybody has to like it.
- TheFridge

Isn't that exactly what happened? The market determined that it is a great saw and the safest you can buy.

You guys are crying over something that was proposed.

If he has a patent and can defend it what is the problem with that?

 

[RobS888]

If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies that license mandatory safety devices to other companies, we are going to find ourselves with a smaller selection of cars to buy.

If we limit ourselves to only buying products that are not manufactured by companies run by profit-hungry CEOs, we are going to be holding an empty basket at the checkout line.

SawStop s biggest mistake was picking a fight against far bigger companies before it was even large enough to have a decent Public Relations department.

- TarHeelz

They seem to be doing ok on their own. And really, it is a better product.

 

[TheFridge]

You really are the bubbly cheerleader aren't you? Well I guess I'm gonna go ahead and drink the koolaid since every one else that buys a new table saw is wrong and shouldn't be entitled to an opinion.

What was the name of this topic again?

 

[MrUnix]

I think you are confused. I m pointing out that many companies have sought and received government help that massively affects their market. If you want to get stuck on particulars feel free.

No doubt, companies do it all the time. But you seem to be saying that the motivation behind those actions are meaningless. Taking action to prevent harm or offset unfair practices is much different than taking action for personal gain. Are you seriously claiming otherwise?

Find an analogy that matches a table saw accident?

Why… the one TheFridge gave is perfectly adequate as was the HD one before it. The severity of the possible result is irrelevant to the point.

Cheers,
Brad

 

[unbob]

Show me your SawStop Tattoo!.....
The SS legal action was thrown out as baseless. That is a fact. There are thousands of products that are dangerous. If worried about them, don't use them.

I did discover that many years ago Japanese industrial grade woodworking machines were somehow shut out of the US market. All I know is there are almost none in the US, but can be found in odd places like South Africa.
I ended up with one that was out of a Boeing casting pattern shop.

 

[RobS888]

I think you are confused. I m pointing out that many companies have sought and received government help that massively affects their market. If you want to get stuck on particulars feel free.

No doubt, companies do it all the time. But you seem to be saying that the motivation behind those actions are meaningless. Taking action to prevent harm or offset unfair practices is much different than taking action for personal gain. Are you seriously claiming otherwise?

Find an analogy that matches a table saw accident?

Why… the one TheFridge gave is perfectly adequate as was the HD one before it. The severity of the possible result is irrelevant to the point.

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

Not at all, motivation is important, but not for this point:

Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.

I don't really care what you guys think about sawstop or HD, just think you should be consistent. I selected the HD example specifically for its iconic value. Almost any successful lobbying would have served. I guess banks are dead cars are dead. Step Back from the love of HD or your hatred of sawstop and you may see.

The "analogies" supplied are in the same category as "life is like a box of chocolates"!

 

[RobS888]

You really are the bubbly cheerleader aren t you? Well I guess I m gonna go ahead and drink the koolaid since every one else that buys a new table saw is wrong and shouldn t be entitled to an opinion.

What was the name of this topic again?

- TheFridge

Wow! Asking for consistency is cheerleading?

 

[MarkDavisson]

We may not know all the facts but when the question of "why do you hate sawstop" is asked, the political side of it comes up more than people not liking the tech.

- TheFridge

Fridge, I have long been convinced that the political opinions of many (if not most) people are based on their like or dislike of the proponents and opponents of those opinions.

Replace Gass, in this case, with a disabled vet, for example, and a lot of the noise goes away. Or keep Gass in the picture but make him, instead of a lawyer, a former Chrysler union steward, and a lot of the noise goes away.

 

[rwe2156]

I'd like to address the OP. No. I do not "hate" SawStop, but I don't "like" them either.

I wouldn't spend the extra money on one, because my fingers don't come anywhere near a spinning blade when I use my saw. I think its like HD or Apple computers - its a brand affiliation people make and since they've got more money in it then other brands, they get their hackles up when someone "downs" their product.

Personality/business tactic issues aside, shouldn't the facts come into play somewhere?
Instead of getting emotional, lets be logical.

a. Are there any statistics on the number of missing digits/year or whatever among ww'ers?
I'm sure the hospital ER's keep track of such things. I need to look into it.

b. If 10,000 saws need to be sold to save one careless guys finger, then they have to market the technology based on fear because the ONLY injury it can prevent is flesh touching the blade.

I think the real problem is here are tons of guys with ww'ing machinery and little to no experience that:

a. do not use them on a regular basis.
b. have NEVER watch a video or read anything about safety procedures.
c. try to do things with their machines the are not designed to do.
d. view ww'ing more as recreation than a craft.

For me, the bottom line is the machine manufacturers need to be more responsible in the safety area.
Yeah, theres a couple pages in the front of the manual on safety (and, of course, the disclaimers) but WHO READS THEM? Is it because we don't read directions anyway, or because we have a Y chromosome our brains are wired to run equipment safely??

I all boils down to personal choice, but like a lot of other issues, I don't want something jammed down my throat by the government or anyone else.

 

[SirIrb]

Does harley get/ got u.s. bailouts or try to mandate something they make to be had on all bikes? if so then yes-scorched earth. Just like GM, Ford and Dodge.

This.

Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.

It could be the best and most solid saw on the market and sold for a crisp Benjamin but this weaseling the state makes me sick. SS is scorched earth to me.

I ll take a old PM or Unisaw any day as long as they dont do the same governmental nonsense.

Up for grabs is the other half hot dog, in the troll parade! "There are a grand total of zero governmental restrictions/regulations imposed upon any woodworker in America created by SawStop or its founder" Because the Ahole failed.

- unbob

- SirIrb

Is Harley Davidson dead to you?

- RobS888

 

[TheDane]

Are there any statistics on the number of missing digits/year or whatever among ww'ers?
I'm sure the hospital ER s keep track of such things. I need to look into it.

Know anyone who works in a hospital ER? My wife was a medical transcriptionist, and had countless notes dictated by ER doctors concerning severed digits and other table saw injuries. Though it is true there are many injuries resulting from kickbacks, the most severe (and most expensive) are from flesh-to-blade contact. Some estimates place the number of severed digits at around -thousand per year in the U.S. The last estimate I saw placed the average cost of medical care after such an accident at about $95-thousand dollars.

Table saw accidents can happen to the best of us.

I'm sure folks on this forum are familiar with Charles Neil. If you are not, Charles is one of the country's premiere woodworking artisans … he has been working in the craft for about 40 years. Pull up some of Charles' Youtube videos and check out his left hand.

Woodturners probably know Sam Angelo, the Wyoming Woodturner. Sam had an accident a few months ago that cost him a couple of finger tips on his left hand.

The stats and anecdotal evidence are out there.

 

[SirIrb]

Yes, de-digiting does happen. But should I not be free to be allowed to choose to use this tech?
My problem is regulating the market. If it is only advertising "Hey, we'll save digits is you buy our saw". Thats great. If it is trying to have the market regulated then screw them. I dont necessarily hate the product, I hate the attempt at regulation. The principal is enough to keep me from buying them.

Are there any statistics on the number of missing digits/year or whatever among ww ers?
I m sure the hospital ER s keep track of such things. I need to look into it.

Know anyone who works in a hospital ER? My wife was a medical transcriptionist, and had countless notes dictated by ER doctors concerning severed digits and other table saw injuries. Though it is true there are many injuries resulting from kickbacks, the most severe (and most expensive) are from flesh-to-blade contact. Some estimates place the number of severed digits at around -thousand per year in the U.S. The last estimate I saw placed the average cost of medical care after such an accident at about $95-thousand dollars.

Table saw accidents can happen to the best of us.

I m sure folks on this forum are familiar with Charles Neil. If you are not, Charles is one of the country s premiere woodworking artisans … he has been working in the craft for about 40 years. Pull up some of Charles Youtube videos and check out his left hand.

Woodturners probably know Sam Angelo, the Wyoming Woodturner. Sam had an accident a few months ago that cost him a couple of finger tips on his left hand.

The stats and anecdotal evidence are out there.

- TheDane

 

[TheFridge]

In Louisiana, if you get in a wreck without your seatbelt, any injuries caused by not wearing your seatbelt are your responsibility.

It's the individuals choice. How it should be.

 

[Redoak49]

The statistics are about 4000 amputations per year from table saw accidents.

Two thirds of table saw accidents happen with the blade guard removed.

Yes, the Sawstop would reduce amputations.

However, if these mfg would design stop bitching about Sawstop and design a good blade guard that people would be less inclined to remove, there would be a huge decrease in injuries.

Sometimes, the simple solution of a better guard is overlooked.

 

[MrUnix]

Not at all, motivation is important, but not for this point:

Anyone who tries to use the state to regulate something rather than letting the market decide what it wants is dead to me.

I don t really care what you guys think about sawstop or HD, just think you should be consistent. I selected the HD example specifically for its iconic value. Almost any successful lobbying would have served. I guess banks are dead cars are dead. Step Back from the love of HD or your hatred of sawstop and you may see.

Ok, I get it now… and you are correct, I was confused - because you inappropriately have taken the pedantic interpretation of a single line of one post and proceeded to apply it in a blanket fashion (ie: "You Guys" in the above statement) to anyone who disagreed. And while it was fairly disingenuous of you to do so, I should have realized it sooner, so that was my mistake.

Just so you know, I do not love HD, and SS is not dead to me. There are some valid reasons to by a SS… however, there are some valid reasons not to buy one as well - and for me, the owners actions are way down towards the bottom of that list.

Cheers,
Brad