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Why do I care about amperes ?

4.8K views 67 replies 25 participants last post by  TopamaxSurvivor  
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Most small tools specifications skip the useful power but proudly state how many amperes a tool consumes. When in fact the less efficient a motor is at the given useful power the more amperes it consumes.
Want more amperes on your weak tool ? Just skip some copper in the wingdings and you have it. I find it completely impossible to compare tools by just looking at the specifications.
 
#4 ·
Since manufacturers starting using some abstract number for horsepower ratings, full load amps at a given voltage is the only way to compare the power a tool puts out.
- TopamaxSurvivor
What?? You mean that 6.5HP rating on my shop-vac, that runs on a standard 15A 120v wall outlet, might be a bit overly optimistic? <grin>

Cheers,
Brad
 
#6 ·
Wait long enough and some slick lawyer will figure out a class action suit and get us all our money back. I still remember years ago when Campbell Hausfeld was sued for being too "enthusiastic" with the HP claims on compressors. The lawyers got hundreds of millions and I got a $50 gift certificate.
 
#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
Since manufacturers starting using some abstract number for horsepower ratings, full load amps at a given voltage is the only way to compare the power a tool puts out.

- TopamaxSurvivor
There is only one produced power. I is some very concrete number. What manufacturers put on the shop vacs in highly visible letters has nothing to do with power rating of the vac. Same as with consumed amperes that do not represent the power of a device.

Unfortunately consumer protection agencies in the US are a joke.
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
Almost all numbers are toyed around with to get favorable marketing buzz. Fine Woodworking did some reviews of cordless drills a few years ago. Festool published torque ratings that were sub-par to the published ratings of other manufacturers. But their ratings were actually accurate in real-world testing whereas most other companies published "best case" numbers for their products.

In a way I can understand their reluctance because most consumers are ignorant about tools, electricity and performance and they respond better to easy-to-read fluff than hard data. I don't believe for a moment that the average buyer is going to spend an hour comparing technical charts before grabbing a tool off the shelf. But for people that like to educate themselves, it can be hard to make informed decisions when complete, accurate specifications aren't available.

Don't get me started on fan curve charts for dust collectors.
 
#10 ·
You only have to consider amp ratings if ya wanna keep from burning down your shop, blowing breakers, or really pissing yourself off when trying to do more than the power tool is beyond its limitations.
Other than that, no sweat. Having posted that rude comment, I'll now fire up my Ridgid vac which will suck the paint off my Grizz lathe. BOOOOOO!
Bill
 
#12 ·
Sears has been doing it for 50-60 years at least. Nothing new.

Another mag, Wood maybe, tested midi lathe horsepower some years back and found that all the Chinese brands like Grizzly, Rikon, etc had inflated their numbers, some by a lot. Delta seemed to have slightly understated the rating.
 
#13 ·
Wait long enough and some slick lawyer will figure out a class action suit and get us all our money back. I still remember years ago when Campbell Hausfeld was sued for being too "enthusiastic" with the HP claims on compressors. The lawyers got hundreds of millions and I got a $50 gift certificate.

- Fred Hargis
If you got $50 gift certificate. You did very very well.
 
#15 ·
The current rating on a tool is not there so that you can compare one tool to another for power. It's there so that you can be aware of whether or not you will overload the circuit that it's plugged in to. And if you're using an extension cord with the tool, you need to know the current draw of the tool to pick a suitable extension cord.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
Since manufacturers starting using some abstract number for horsepower ratings, full load amps at a given voltage is the only way to compare the power a tool puts out.

- TopamaxSurvivor
A full load amps at a given voltage has little relationship to how much power a tool puts out, as it only tells you how much power the tool consumes. The amount of power the tool puts out depends on how efficient it handles that consumed power. Using amps to compare the power output of two tools would be like comparing how many pounds two people can lift based on how many pounds of steak each person ate before lifting!!

But as Bill points out, the amount of amps a tool consumes at full load is important to know in order to determine if your electric circuit can handle the tool, but that is the limit of its importance. To make matters even worse, I doubt if 2% of the consumers even know what amps are!!

A major problem with trying to compare similar types of tools is that I don't believe there is any widely accepted standard for measuring a tool's power output, other than possibly RPM, which isn't always relevant. The term HP became popular because it was widely used to measure the power of cars, but even there it is unreliable and has become bastardized.
 
#17 ·
A full load amps at a given voltage has little relationship to how much power a tool puts out, as it only tells you how much power the tool consumes. The amount of power the tool puts out depends on how efficient it handles that consumed power. Using amps to compare the power output of two tools would be like comparing how many pounds two people can lift based on how many pounds of steak each person ate before lifting!!

- jmalcolm001
Granted efficiency is an important factor, but basic electricity 101 and Ohm's law tends to indicate this is an asinine statement. Does P=IE ring a bell?
 
#19 ·
jmalcom001 is right. Voltage X Current = Power INPUT to the motor. Power output by the motor is Power Input X e (efficiency factor). The actual HP of 2 motors drawing the same current off the same voltage source is very different if one has a 90% efficiency and the other has a 60% efficiency.

Amps are only useful for how much power the motor/tool will consume. You need more information to relate it to the power it outputs.
 
#21 ·
There is also a way different types of motors are rated. Induction motors, those that drive a belt as on table saws are rated by volts vs amp while universal motors (shop vacs) are rated by horse power developed. Power(watts) = volts x amps. 745.7 watts=1 horsepower.

- MrRon
My Porter Cable CPL6025 compressor uses a single phase belt drive induction motor that Porter Cable has rated at 6hp, obviously given zero regard to the fact that power from a 120V 15A circuit doesn't have that much power available to start with, never mind the fact the motor is almost certainly less than 80% efficient in turning electricity into mechanical power.
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
There is also a way different types of motors are rated. Induction motors, those that drive a belt as on table saws are rated by volts vs amp while universal motors (shop vacs) are rated by horse power developed. Power(watts) = volts x amps. 745.7 watts=1 horsepower.
- MrRon
That is not exactly true. Induction motors are rated in mechanical power on the shaft.
This is from the specifications sheets:
3HP Sawstop - 230V 13A. Consumed power (23013) / 750 = 4HP (efficiency 75%)
2HP G0715P 16A at 110V Consumed power (16
110) / 750 = 2.35HP (efficiency 85%)

Now why the Grizzly less powerful motor is more efficient than Sawstop's more powerful motor when normally efficiency goes up with power is a mystery. 85% coefficient of efficiency for a 2HP single phase motor is extremely good. It requires development and manufacturing efforts similar to those to make a space station. Kudos to Grizzly for doing an excellent job in producing the best electric motor the world ever seen!
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
Shop vacs refer to "peak horsepower" which is related to how much current the motor pulls in the few milliseconds when the motor starts. It sells vacs.

- BobAnderton
That is a correct although a very simple explanation. Everyone reading it would say what the heck !
Here is a more "scientific" explanation from the Shopvac website, that has only one purpose: to sound smart when saying utter bull$h&^.
-------
*"Peak Horsepower" (PHP) is a term used in the wet-dry vacuum industry for consumer comparison purposes. It does not denote the operational horsepower of a wet-dry vacuum but rather the horsepower output of a motor, including the motor's inertial contribution, achieved in laboratory testing.
-----
https://www.shopvac.com/product/shop-vac-wet-dry-vac-w-long-life-motor-catnum:9272610

I can only assume that "consumer comparison purpose" is something shopvac uses to compare consumers.
 
#26 ·
Your nominal voltage values are not correct. They should be 240 and 120 volts. If you measure at 110VAC or 230 (used to be 220) you should report it to the power company. Under super heavy loads, that may be all they can deliver but it is not normal.
There is also a way different types of motors are rated. Induction motors, those that drive a belt as on table saws are rated by volts vs amp while universal motors (shop vacs) are rated by horse power developed. Power(watts) = volts x amps. 745.7 watts=1 horsepower.
- MrRon

That is not exactly true. Induction motors are rated in mechanical power on the shaft.
This is from the specifications sheets:
3HP Sawstop - 230V 13A. Consumed power (23013) / 750 = 4HP (efficiency 75%)
2HP G0715P 16A at 110V Consumed power (16
110) / 750 = 2.35HP (efficiency 85%)

Now why the Grizzly less powerful motor is more efficient than Sawstop s more powerful motor when normally efficiency goes up with power is a mystery. 85% coefficient of efficiency for a 2HP single phase motor is extremely good. It requires development and manufacturing efforts similar to those to make a space station. Kudos to Grizzly for doing an excellent job in producing the best electric motor the world ever seen!

- Carloz