There's a compromise to be had as there always is Like you said, a lower angle is easier to push. The higher the angle is, the more resistance there is. So high angles approach a scraping action and cause less tearout and leave a nicer surface generally. However, your depth of cut is really shallow because that's all you need for smoothing. With a jack or jointer you typically need to remove significantly more material than with a smoother. So a higher angle will indeed leave a better surface with those planes but, due to the increased resistance, you'll have to reduce your depth of cut which means you'll have to make a lot more passes with the plane to get the face flattened or to get to the desired thickness.

 

There is a compromise based on hardenss of wood and grain etc. remeber, a planed surface is much nicer than a scraped surface. And a scraped surface is nicer than sanded. This is why you see japanese kanna set around 38 degrees which leaves and absolutely gorgeous shiny surface on soft woods typically used in japan. BUT, japanese typically don't finish the wood, if they did, stains and other finishes wouldn't penetrate as well. Ironically if you use a higher angle/scraper on soft woods like cedar and pine they can kind of "crumble" to the point of looking like tearout.

So you kind of need to find what works best for the wood you are working and what finish you are trying to accomplish.

 

For standard bench planes 45 degrees is pretty close to ideal for general use. Fans of low angle planes may disagree. With the development of the chipbreaker tearout could be controlled better and craftspeople didn't need the high angle planes like expensive Norris style planes anymore. That said, the high angle planes still work well on difficult woods and if you get real serious about planes you might want to get one or two. Personally I use a scraper plane more often than my high angle (chip breaker lacking) plane because I can trust it to do what I want.

You can improve your results immediately by improving your approach to the chipbreaker.

 

That said, the high angle planes still work well on difficult woods and if you get real serious about planes you might want to get one or two.

- Loren

To add here, some planes like Lie Nielsen smoothers you can buy additional angle frogs. So you can buy it with , for example, a 45, and purchase a 55 frog. Then when you work on some tropical exotic wood you can swap out the frog.

 

Thanks fellas.

 

Ruckus, Ruckus, Ruckus. Is that enough Ruckus for you?
Sorry could not resist.

+1 Type of wood and wood grain define an optimum range of plane blade angles to balance effort and results.
While one can certainly claim that one angle can be used for any situation; it may not be most efficient, or generate desired results without secondary processing. As in Japanese example above: a properly planed surface often does not need scraping or sanding, before finishing.

IMHO - debate on this topic often falls into the: work smarter (with right angle), not harder category. But since zealous use of power sander can fix most planing errors and sanding is considered normal, debates rage endlessly into Ruckus. LOL

YMMV

 

@CaptainKlutz

Hehehe….there is the ruckus!

I knew there would be some.

 

If you take the bevel up plane and add 6 degrees to the opposite side of your bevel you will effectively lower the cutting angle.
It great for planing end grain.
Good Luck

 

Aj2,

Do you mean the ruler trick?

 

No the ruler trick is very micro.
I'm taking about adding a bevel to the back of the blade.
It's not for the timid

 

Wouldn't adding a bevel to the back of a bevel up plane do the same as changing the bevel angle on a bevel down plane? (i.e. nothing)

Unless I'm misunderstanding where you are putting the bevel?

 

Hello Everyone,

I know this topic can cause quite the ruckus but here goes.

I have been woodworking for a few years now and I think I have a good handle on hand tools, although I am no expert. I use Veritas bevel-up planes and I love them.

Regarding planes, I know that the lower the angle of the blade the easier it is to push the plane. The higher the angle the harder it is but it generally causes less tear out and leaves a better finish. Thus, smoothing planes generally use higher angles.

So my question is, why not use higher angle blades on all planes like the jack and jointer? I don t want those planes causes tear out either. Is it just because lower angles are easier to push or is there something else?

I know there are times when lower angles are better like when cutting end grain. So my question is limited to side grain - which is the bulk of my planing.

Thanks.

Hazem

- Hazem

Hazem, there is much misunderstandings in your comments.

Note, not all wood need extra special attention to prevent tearout. Most USA hardwoods are relatively benign compared with my local West Australian fare, which has much reversing grain. It is how one controls reversing grain that is the focus. Blades will get underneath and lift it.

Then, there are basically two effective ways to control tearout. Coming a poor third is a small mouth. Forget this one.

The first is a high cutting angle (NOT a high bevel angle). Somewhere between 55-65 degrees will control most tearout. Note that a Stanley has a 45 degree frog, which creates a 45 degree cutting angle (as the blade is bevel down). Bevel down planes get their cutting angle from the angle of the bed.

A second way of creating a high cutting angle is a bevel up plane. The cutting angle on a BU planes comes from the angle of the bed + the bevel angle. So, a 50 degree secondary bevel on a BU plane, added to the 12 degree bed, creates a 62 degree cutting angle.

NOTE that you will NOT lower the cutting angle by backbevelling a BU blade (as suggested above). All planes require a clearance angle to keep cutting, and there needs to be at least 7 degrees clear. A 5 degree backbevel will cause the plane to stop cutting!

The second method of controlling tearout is with the chipbreaker. The leading edge of the chipbreaker is given a 50 degree secondary bevel, and the chipbreker is moved 0.4-0.5mm behind the edge of the blade. There is a learning curve here - not for novices - but it has the best control of tearout of all methods. My Veritas Custom Smoother has a 42 degree bed but works so well with the chipbreaker up close.

If you want more detail and photos, go to this article of mine …

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

Let's be clear. The sharpness angle of a plane iron is not the same as the effective cutting angle of the plane. On my iron miter plane I believe it's 20 degrees. I can add 10 degrees face bevel on the iron and still have clearance. It will take a shaving.
I mentioned 6 for the op since most are something around 12.
This is a sneaky way to lower the effective cutting of the iron when it meets the wood.
The sharpness angle of a bevel up plane should be considered with the type of wood I keep mine at 28. It holds the edge pretty good and it's not too hard to push.
Bevel down planes whole different subject.
Good Luck

 

I neglected to add:

All BD blades, regardless of steel type, are best sharpened at 30-32 degree. This holds longest. While some may come with a 25 degree primary, they are expected to get a 30 degree secondary.

All BU block planes, with either 12- or 20 degree beds, will work with bevels at 25 degrees for shooting endgrain. I keep one with a 50 degree bevel for edge work.

You will NOT get a "sharper" edge with a lower bevel angle, per se. All you get is a weaker edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

Let's be clear. The sharpness angle of a plane iron is not the same as the effective cutting angle of the plane. On my iron miter plane I believe it's 20 degrees. I can add 10 degrees face bevel on the iron and still have clearance. It will take a shaving.
I mentioned 6 for the op since most are something around 12.
This is a sneaky way to lower the effective cutting of the iron when it meets the wood.
The sharpness angle of a bevel up plane should be considered with the type of wood I keep mine at 28. It holds the edge pretty good and it's not too hard to push.
Bevel down planes whole different subject.
Good Luck

- Aj2

AJ2, you wrote "bevel up plane" (all of which have 12 degree beds) in your earlier post. You did not specify it as a LN #9 with a 20 degree bed.

Regardless, it is not a good idea. Not only does it create two bevels to hone, but it makes no difference to the cut surface.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

The best reasoning for not adding a 10 degree face bevel on a plane blade is because it's not all that easy to do. Over and over again
Unless one has very wide stones or wants to keep paper glued to a flat stone or glass. It's a hassle to setup
The point was to encourage the op to experiment have some fun try different angles. See what works and what doesn't.
I think the belief that 10 or 12 degrees of clearance needs to be strictly held is a mixing of machines rules spilling over to handtools.
I also don't think it creates a sharper edge but it might help with ends grain on soft woods.
Good Luck

 

I think the belief that 10 or 12 degrees of clearance needs to be strictly held is a mixing of machines rules spilling over to handtools.

Aj, that may be so, at least in my experience. However, this was written about in some detail by Leonard Lee (father of Rob Lee, Lee Valley and Veritas) in his highly acclaimed book/Bible on sharpening.

I have several shooting planes, including the Stanley #51, LN #51 and Veritas equivalent - so why have even more!! - I am just a sucker for these planes. Anyway, I built a Strike Block Plane for a ramped shooting board (I started making these about 20 years ago, but eventually moved to a Stanley #52).

The Strike Block Plane is solid (not laminated), and has a 37 degree bed. The vintage blade is bevelled at 25 degrees. The result is a 37 degree cutting angle, which is as low as one can go safely.

Article here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlockPlane.html

The point is that I followed the rule for a 12 degree clearance angle. I could take the bevel angle up to 30 degrees for a stronger edge, but this would reduce the clearance to 7 degrees. Dicey.

Plus there is not much to gain in edge longevity at the lower bed angle. On shooting boards, planing end grain, a 25 degree bevel (regardless of steel type) will outlast all with a higher bed angle. Read it here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

Says so right on the iron, on some of my vintage planes…..even shows you the angle…..of…25 degrees…..

There ARE some out there that claim they use FOUR different bevels on the irons they are supposed to use….BS

Usually, just a flat back, a SINGLE (easy to maintain) bevel, a well set chipbreaker…..and away you go…

With a single 25 degree bevel, chipbreaker set 1mm back from the edge….frog and back of the plane's mouth are coplannar ….and works the same whether I am working Pine, or Red Oak, or Ash…..

But, then again..I am NOT trying to sell fancy sharpening jigs, fancy stones, or other commissioned sales items…

Iron was honed to 2500 grit, then stropped…then when to work….and is still working…YMMV…

"Tain't Rocket Science..ya know.."