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Craftsman 10" Contractor Table Saw Model 21833 - Alignment

56K views 63 replies 18 participants last post by  HerbC  
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Craftsman - 218330 10" Contractor Table Saw (Rating: 3)

Previous review by Bobthebuilderinmichigan and good info from BoardRunner are here:
http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/1225
After a few months and a couple of projects with this saw, here are some observations ;
In short, the 351-218330 seems a very good table saw for the price, with most everything I needed included. The rip fence is very good for a saw in this price class, and with a good after-market miter gauge (I caught the Incra 120 on sale) and an upgraded blade, performance is very good. It would more appropriately be classed as 'hybrid' vs a 'contractor' saw… As noted in another review, contractor saws typically have the motor external at the rear of the saw and are designed for portability, while the hybrid saw with internal motor assembly is actually much closer to a 'cabinet' saw. IMHO, no way is this 300 lb thingy a 'contractor saw'.
The only real problems I experienced with my saw were -
• (1) Getting if off the truck
• (2) Assembly instructions in the Operator's Manual are skimpy at best but with a couple of false starts and interpreting the instructions, saw went together in about a day (I'm pokey).
• (3) Turning it upright after initial assembly, takes a couple or three strong folks.
• (4) A loose motor/arbor belt, easily tightened once diagnosed.
• (5) Blade alignment - see the "Unfortunately" paragraph at the end.
Features that worked or didn't:
• Main Table - Cast, finished nicely, and very true, miter slots machined just fine. The 'brains' of the saw.
• Motor and arbor function - Very Good… Smooth, quiet, good power for rip or cross cut of up to 2" thick hardwoods. Didn't have any larger stock to try, so jury is still out on the heavy stuff. This is (after all) a 115volt 1 ¾ hp saw, so wouldn't expect it to feed thick oak very fast.
• Blade - Just OK, but replace with a good one for precision work. The Freud and Rigid worked great for me.
• Blade Access and arbor lock are excellent for blade changes.
• Rip Fence - about 4-stars, not a Beis or a PM2000 but certainly adequate, aligned OK. Just make sure to seat the fence on the front rail consistently each time before securing with the handle. It's very repeatable if done right. Installation of the fence rails was tedious due to bolt locations.
• Arbor stops - Both the 90 and 45 degree stops adjustments are accessible from tabletop, but seemed a bit mushy.
• Blade Inserts - Both single-blade and dado plates are provided. These are metal and the support ledge bosses are only 1/8" below the table surface so zero-clearance inserts are a little more trouble to install (have to be relieved for the support bosses).
• Off/On Switch - nice, easily turned off with knee or leg. Downside: easily turned off if bumped or if switch cover allowed to fall back from lifted position.
• Extensions = OK but sure would have preferred cast versus the powder-coated steel versions.
• Blade Height/Angle adjustment - Worked OK but obviously not premium mechanisms.
• Riving Knife - and OK does it's job. Very nice adjustment mechanism to lower or remove it.
• Blade Guard and Anti-Kickback Assy - Both work OK.
• Caster system - Outstanding! The 4 swiveling casters make it really easy to move. In the 'down' position on the rubber feet the saw is very stable.
• Dust collection - Chute at the bottom with 4" port, worked very well and easy access to clean saw interior by just removing the rear panel.
• Blade/arbor adjustment - this done via 4 (not 3 as manual says) bolts that hold the front and rear trunions to the bottom of the table. As noted by a couple of other LJS reviews, the socket bolt head diameter used here is too small and can be resolved by replacing those bolts with 10mm x 1.5mm x 30mm flange bolts. Without this change, the blade adjustment was nearly impossible.

Unfortunately the saw I bought has a critical defect. Even after changing the trunion bolts, the horizontal blade alignment changes radically from the lowest to highest blade positions, as much as .080" at the rear edge of the blade with respect to the front of the blade. Changing the blade angle also changes the horizontal alignment, although less severely. This condition appears to be caused by a casting or machining defect in the main arbor/motor assembly, and is not possible to correct with just arbor or trunion adjustment.
Sears service when contacted was helpful and says this saw can be repaired within the 1-year warranty period, but after the 90-day return/refund period requires removal of the saw base and fence (and return to a service center) to allow them to ship it back for repair. At this point that's way too much trouble, and I'm pretty sure I will just sell the saw as is and reinvest in a better quality unit. After all, the blade can be aligned very well at any single height, sort of like a stopped clock that's right at least twice a day!

If anyone has had any luck correcting this condition, I would sure appreciate knowing the solution.
Thanks!
 

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#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
They wouldn't allow you to return it or exchange it ? Does the showroom model do the same thing ?
Other than wrenches and screwdrivers (hand tools), I've had no luck with any of their power tools at all.
None of their help has a clue and other than selling us an extended warranty , that's about all they can offer us : (
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
Dusty,
No return or exchange since it's past 90 days, but they will repair it if I bring it back in minus the legs and the fence. I just don't feel like taking it all apart (again) and don't have much confidence they would fix it anyway.

Thanks for the suggestion on showroom model, but I think the local store sold the last one several months ago.
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
Update: PhilBobb was dead on the money: The problem he noted is the same as mine, machining and casting errors on the motor bracket and main trunion cause a varying interference between the trunion and bracket as the blade is raised or lowered. This causes the blade motor bracket and arbor to skew as the bracket rotates on the main pivot pin that connects those two.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1290a.jpg

After a long day of working this, my saw is now an empty lifeless hulk, but I've completed the machining to correct the problem. Tomorrow I'll reassemble chinese torture puzzle. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1310a.jpg

If anyone is interested in the fix, I'll start another post in the Tools section showing the details. It's an ambitious project!
 
#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
I bought mine about 2 months ago. I haven't had a problem at all. I do admit that it is quite heavy. I almost had a cow picking it up to put it up right, should of had some help. But every time I check the allinment it dead on runs quite and roll around real smooth. As far as the on off switch. It's moveable, I would move it to where its far out enough on the rail to not be bumped easly, but can still be turned off with you leg or knee.
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
smitty22: Thanks for the comments on the alignment problems with the saw. I too am having alignment problems when I raise and lower the blade. I thought it was a rip fence problem, but every time I brought the blade to its highest position, it was in perfect alignment… until I lowered the blade a little, then I saw it was way off.

The idea of lugging the thing out of my basement and having Sears send another one is just a miserable thought.

How did you end up fixing it?
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi gbook,
I'm going to create a blog or new thread with the process that it took to fix this mess, but in a nutshell:
1. Drop the the motor to free up the main trunion assembly.
2. Remove the trunion assembly.
3. Machine the motor/arbor support structure to provide clearance between it and the main trunion assy.
4. File or machine the excess web casting from the main trunion.
4. Shim the motor arbor support so that the edge of the lower spur gear area rides on the main trunion boss/bearing area.
5. Reassemble the whole thing.

Here are a few pics that might give an idea of the scope of the fix:
The Problem Area - Pic #1
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1290a.jpg

Crooked holes - Pic #2
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1328.jpg

Main Trunion assy, cleaning up the casting where it interferes with the arbor/motor plate:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1326.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1327.jpg

Machining the arbor/motor trunion:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1385.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1382Medium.jpg

Primary milled area, before/after:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1319a.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1394a.jpg

The Result, almost back in operation:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/Tex223/Woodworking-1/IMG_1412a.jpg

IMO, would have been easier to take it back, but no guarantee that it would have been fixed right, so I just did it meself! Best of luck with yours.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
Well, the table saw is all back together but the news is not good. The blade slewing as height adjusted is still there. not nearly as bad at the highest position but still unacceptable. Blade stays reasonably straight up to about 2" blade height, so it's at least useable for 90 deg cuts of up to 2Ă—4's. I'm speculating that machining of the motor/arbor trunion pivot or other bearing surfaces is involved, but that will remain a mystery.

Sorry I couldn't come up with a solution for others with the same problem.
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
smitty22, I'm sorry it didn't entirely work out, but thank you for your detailed description of your fix. I decided after reading the steps you posted that it was not worth it for to try to fix it myself. So I'm returning it and have Sears coming to pick up the saw tomorrow. Thankfully they said they will refund the entire amount I paid, and will not charge for pickup. I did need to take off the motor and trunnions to get the thing into the basement, so hopefully Sears will help me get the pile of steel out of the basement now.

I saw the 21833 isn't listed on Sears.com any longer. Maybe they noticed all of the problems too and decided to pull it. The saw has a lot of good features, but if it can't cut straight, its not worth anything.

I decided to go for the Grizzly G0438RL saw instead. It is about $200 more than the 21833, but I think it will be well worth it.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
Had this saw for a few days. it had terrible alignment issues so i took it back. (i was nice enough to put it back in its box) got my money back and shopped around for a week or so. Would've probably bought the delta 36-715 with the T2 fence if the guys at woodcraft in austin had it set up better. (the fence was stuck and it seemed to not be set up very well.)
so I decided to get the 22116 with the granite top and biesemeyer-style fence because it was only $662 and seemed like a decent machine. First 22116 to arrive was damaged in shipping so i refused it. Second 22116 is due any time now. 22116 seems like a good saw for the money, i guess time will tell. I wouldnt buy the 21833 again no matter the price.
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
Smitty - That saw sounds like nightmare, but I laud your efforts for trying to fix it. I'm not sure who's making the 21833 but it sounds like it has some serious systemic issues.

Chris - The 22116 should prove to be a better saw for you. That design is more proven in the Ridgid and Steel City saws.
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
Thanks Scott, you're right, it was a nightmare. but when I woke up I sold it. Took a loss but did get to complete a badly needed project with it, and learned a bunch about table saws while messing with the 21833, so all in all I guess I'll consider it a positive experience! No more Craftsman saws in my shop either.

Based on the fairly large number of these sold with the same reported problems, I would say that Sears and their supplier really dropped the ball on the design and QC for this saw. Almost worthy of 'recall' since the severe blade misalignment at either height extreme and potential kickback could really catch a person by suprise.

Sounds like the Sears outlet centers have a pretty good supply of these, not surprising!
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
I had planned to get the Grizzly contractor saw, but through a series of discontinued and back ordered items, the best I could do was wait until September and pay $350 more than the Craftsman. When I saw the 21833 listed on their website recently at $409, I decided to get it again. This one is MUCH better. No alignment problems with the blade and raising/lowering. Well, its within 0.002" until the blade height gets to the very top and I hit the height stop, then its out by about 0.10", which still isn't bad at all. The previous saw had a manufacture date of 09/2009, this one was 05/2010.

The fence was a little cranky to get straight. It seemed to be because of the way I aligned the fence. I tried to get to the wings level with the table by using the fence to support them. Unfortunately the fence rails are not strong enough to keep the wings level, so that caused the fence to be out of alignment when it was set wider than 12".

Otherwise, this saw is fantastic with all the features! I guess I'm glad the Grizzlys were backordered, otherwise I would have paid a lot more for a very similar saw (without a mobile base).
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
gbook,
I'm very glad to hear that they may have recognized and corrected the manufacturing problems. Best of luck with the new one, IMHO still a good saw for the price, and if mine had been straight, would still be using it.
As it is, my shop has a big hole waiting to be filled and bet it's going to cost me a bit more than $409!

Cheers,
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
Picker, that's sure a shame, but the manufacturing and/or QC on many of that model really suffered. Wish mine had been straight, but no luck either. It was 12/23/09 build, but not sure if the string of defective saws correlates to any specific dates or periods.

The newer Sears OR35505 might be a better saw in that same class, but no caster base which I really liked.

Anyway and as I noted above, no more Craftsman table saws for me, a new mustard-colored TS just sneaked into the shop last Friday, assembly is underway. It's just dropdead gorgeous!
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
Well heres the rest of the story returned saw yesterday and was told because i didn't have the original packageing that all they could do is give me a replacement so i took the new saw and left it in the back of my truck with the intention of returning it in a couple days unoppened, wouldn't you know a lightning storm came through last night with torrential rains and now i have a soaking wet box in the back of truck luckily i parked it so the back of truck was downhill from front so there was no buildup of water in back of truck, i just can't win with this saw !! i will let you know how sears handels a slightly expanded box
Mike!!!!