I remember my old woodshop teacher saying "Ninety percent of amateurs use poly, and 90% of pros use lacquer." I personally prefer lacquer myself, even though it is a bit temperamental to work with, but this seems like a timeless debate. Are the pros still gravitating to lacquer, or is the field leveling?
Classic debate: lacquer vs. polyurethane
thedudeabides
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I use both depending on the project, I just started using a wipe on Poly and in the future I will make my own. I figured for the first time before I start mixing myself I should see what the fuss is all about. Not only the project but also how I feel at the time or in the case of my daughter we started using water based stains and water based poly, only because she is 8 and I don't want here breathing all that stuff in, plus as she puts it, "that stinks, I don't want to help anymore"
Lacquer is great since it sprays well and I can usually re-coat in 30-45 minutes, water based poly 45-hour brushed on and Spar urethane, about 3 hours or more depending on humidity. So if I need a project completed quicker I have my go to finishes.
Lacquer is great since it sprays well and I can usually re-coat in 30-45 minutes, water based poly 45-hour brushed on and Spar urethane, about 3 hours or more depending on humidity. So if I need a project completed quicker I have my go to finishes.
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I use both I also use shellac and I like all three and some times I use oil and wax and that is all. I use what is best for the project. I don't like to be in a box of this is all that works I despise routine things and I love to mix it up. I love Sam Maloof danish oil and then wax and a good polish job it does not look like a fake buildup on the wood.It lets the wood live and I like how it looks and feels. But I will also use what ever the customer wants they are the boss.
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Consider a waterborne poly floor finish. It's easy to apply, durable, dries quickly, and soap & water cleanup. I've been playing with one called Bona Mega that is available through flooring distributore. I have also used Varathane with success. If it's tough enough to walk on, it's tough enough for furniture.
Hi All,
Although I'm a musician by trade, I apprenticed for many, many years with an cabinet maker and woodworking is my hobby. It seems to me that there are some fundamental real differences that many people are overlooking.
Polyurethane, especially oil-based, will add more of a yellow/orange color/hue to your finish, whereas lacquer is much more clear, adding hardly any color. Sometimes the added color of a poly is desirable, and sometimes not.
And although I cannot speak for the many new water-based polyurethane products that have come out lately, I can add this experience:
About 10 years ago I had 2 work tables that I had built out of the same wood stock. Out of curiosity, I finished one with Minwax oil-based poly, and one with Minwax water-based. They have served side-by-side over the years and taught me a lot about the differences between the two products.
As expected, the oil poly gave much more of a deeper color to the table which I liked. However what I didn't expect, was how much more worse for the wear the water poly is after all these years. Especially after more than one person told me that the water poly was "just as good" as the oil.
The water poly's finish is much duller now than the oil, and has a gazillion spots on it where I spilled a drop of turpentine or alcohol or acetone or almost anything else - even WATER. Yup, I noticed once that when a water spill was left to stand for a long time, that the finish started to soften and dull under the spot. After all that, it was no more water poly for me! It's just not worth it. However maybe now some of the newer products are better than that.
Cheers,
Ray
Although I'm a musician by trade, I apprenticed for many, many years with an cabinet maker and woodworking is my hobby. It seems to me that there are some fundamental real differences that many people are overlooking.
Polyurethane, especially oil-based, will add more of a yellow/orange color/hue to your finish, whereas lacquer is much more clear, adding hardly any color. Sometimes the added color of a poly is desirable, and sometimes not.
And although I cannot speak for the many new water-based polyurethane products that have come out lately, I can add this experience:
About 10 years ago I had 2 work tables that I had built out of the same wood stock. Out of curiosity, I finished one with Minwax oil-based poly, and one with Minwax water-based. They have served side-by-side over the years and taught me a lot about the differences between the two products.
As expected, the oil poly gave much more of a deeper color to the table which I liked. However what I didn't expect, was how much more worse for the wear the water poly is after all these years. Especially after more than one person told me that the water poly was "just as good" as the oil.
The water poly's finish is much duller now than the oil, and has a gazillion spots on it where I spilled a drop of turpentine or alcohol or acetone or almost anything else - even WATER. Yup, I noticed once that when a water spill was left to stand for a long time, that the finish started to soften and dull under the spot. After all that, it was no more water poly for me! It's just not worth it. However maybe now some of the newer products are better than that.
Cheers,
Ray
I "grew up" using lacquer. It is good and I like it. Most people like to work with it because it is fairly easy and it is fast. You can spray another coat in short order. If you want durability, then go with oil based Polyurethane. It is the toughest on the market but it can't be recoated in just a couple of hours. The reason the professionals use lacquer is they can finish a kitchen is a day after they mask it off. Poly, well just not so. Poly is still tougher though.
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I use either one depending on the piece I am finishing and what I want to achieve with the finish.
A large piece of furniture I will probably use poly as I don't have the spray equipment for lacquer.
For a small piece, intended for desk top or table top, possibly art like I will use Deft lacquer from a rattle can.
A large piece of furniture I will probably use poly as I don't have the spray equipment for lacquer.
For a small piece, intended for desk top or table top, possibly art like I will use Deft lacquer from a rattle can.
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Forgive me for what might be a stupid question, but why no mention of shellac in this discussion? I realize it's not good for table tops where one might spill an alcoholic drink, but it's easy to work with, dries fast, and is easily repairable.
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MalcolmLaurel, you're correct I do use that too for toys!
Re "Ninety percent of amateurs use poly, and 90% of pros use lacquer." I would hope that statement to be more of an observation than an indicator of the quality of either finish, or the quality of work either produced.
There are a lot of "pros" producing garbage, then finishing it with lacquer. They are pros based on nothing more than they get paid for their work. On the other hand, there is a lot of amateur work, some on display in museums, exampling remarkable quality that only a rare few pro's "might" duplicate. Much of it is finished in poly, hardening or non-hardening oil, wax or shellac.
Then we can talk about floors. Would you want a floor finished in lacquer, or a good poly?
The primary reason I use lacquer is, it's well suited to commercial applications where durability, such as for holding up against foot traffic, is not the primary concern, or where penetration is not needed. It's clear, can be tinted, sprays easily, builds good and doesn't require a lot of work between coats.
_
An aside: That someone was or is a wood shop teacher impresses me no more than meeting meeting a wood working hobbyist. Many are just parrots of what they think they know. Some are just filling a spot and would rather be elsewhere. Only a few carry the passion needed to be a good teacher.
I had a quarter of wood shop in high school. The kindest thing I could say about my shop teacher is, he was an intelligent idiot of another kind." He had little value, as a shop teacher. People like me [and most his students] interfered with him teaching his more favored students. I produced one project from that class and left it behind. I was told, years later, it still sat on a shelf and had a sign on it, which read "IF YOU DID THIS YOU FLUNKED."
Though my heart was in it, my ignorance won. It is no small irony that: my knowledge of woodworking far dwarfs my only shop teacher's; I own a shop with far better tools and equipment than were available to me in that school shop; and I was invited to an art show in France based on the work I had done.
Add to the forgoing, my father remarried while I was over seas in the sixties. I inherited a step family from it and one of the boys came to live with me while my dad was sick. He needed a high school wood project, so we designed a horizontal cabinet with an etched glass front for his Winchester 30-30. The shop teacher insisted the four sides be made, a dado be made in them, the glass insert as it was assembled, then cut the door off the front, to guarantee it mated with the cabinet.
I argued the door needed to be rabbited, to allow the glass to be removed, in event it ever broke. In the end, the "wise" teacher won and convinced my step brother to do it his way. My step brother broke the etched glass (an elk stepping over a log, with forest and mountains in the back ground, and a small note to the Winchester contents) bringing it home on the bus.
Finally, we could discuss ex father in law, who, also was a shop teacher and held that role for years. Talking with him made it obvious he had a long ways to go to be at the level of someone who takes the hobby seriously, or makes their living creating saw dust.
There are a lot of "pros" producing garbage, then finishing it with lacquer. They are pros based on nothing more than they get paid for their work. On the other hand, there is a lot of amateur work, some on display in museums, exampling remarkable quality that only a rare few pro's "might" duplicate. Much of it is finished in poly, hardening or non-hardening oil, wax or shellac.
Then we can talk about floors. Would you want a floor finished in lacquer, or a good poly?
The primary reason I use lacquer is, it's well suited to commercial applications where durability, such as for holding up against foot traffic, is not the primary concern, or where penetration is not needed. It's clear, can be tinted, sprays easily, builds good and doesn't require a lot of work between coats.
_
An aside: That someone was or is a wood shop teacher impresses me no more than meeting meeting a wood working hobbyist. Many are just parrots of what they think they know. Some are just filling a spot and would rather be elsewhere. Only a few carry the passion needed to be a good teacher.
I had a quarter of wood shop in high school. The kindest thing I could say about my shop teacher is, he was an intelligent idiot of another kind." He had little value, as a shop teacher. People like me [and most his students] interfered with him teaching his more favored students. I produced one project from that class and left it behind. I was told, years later, it still sat on a shelf and had a sign on it, which read "IF YOU DID THIS YOU FLUNKED."
Though my heart was in it, my ignorance won. It is no small irony that: my knowledge of woodworking far dwarfs my only shop teacher's; I own a shop with far better tools and equipment than were available to me in that school shop; and I was invited to an art show in France based on the work I had done.
Add to the forgoing, my father remarried while I was over seas in the sixties. I inherited a step family from it and one of the boys came to live with me while my dad was sick. He needed a high school wood project, so we designed a horizontal cabinet with an etched glass front for his Winchester 30-30. The shop teacher insisted the four sides be made, a dado be made in them, the glass insert as it was assembled, then cut the door off the front, to guarantee it mated with the cabinet.
I argued the door needed to be rabbited, to allow the glass to be removed, in event it ever broke. In the end, the "wise" teacher won and convinced my step brother to do it his way. My step brother broke the etched glass (an elk stepping over a log, with forest and mountains in the back ground, and a small note to the Winchester contents) bringing it home on the bus.
Finally, we could discuss ex father in law, who, also was a shop teacher and held that role for years. Talking with him made it obvious he had a long ways to go to be at the level of someone who takes the hobby seriously, or makes their living creating saw dust.
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I use the right finish for the application - Pro vs Amateur is a loose term. To me a "pro" is someone working in a spray booth for 8 hours a day shooting lacquer for 12.00/hr.
Poly gets a bad reputation because people don't know how to use it correctly. I see the same old myths getting thrown around as gospel truth in almost every thread. For example here is a quick and dirty coffee table I made for my kids media/play room finished with Minwax semi-gloss. The base is pine which should never be stained or finished IMO so it got some milk paint.
![Image]()
I broke just about every "rule" to poly with this finish
1 - I shook the hell out of the can
2 - I thinned it
3 - I used a foam brush
4 - I wiped the brush on the edge of the container
5 - I didn't sand anything. This as 6 coats of poly and no piece of abrasive - sandpaper, steel wool, scotchbrite pads, etc ever touched this finish unitl I rubbed out the last coat.
The reason it looks so nice is I took my time and finished it properly. I pore filled with timbermate first, made sure my sanding was perfect by wiping with mineral spirits, gave the poly ample time between coats to set up, I stopped messing with it so it will self level properly without runs and sags. All I did to rub it out was rub it down with some #0000 steel wool dipped in furniture paste wax.
It took about 7 days to finish this - but if you want poly (or any finish) done properly, you have to follow the correct finishing schedule. Many think poly is a super fast finish - it's not at all
Poly gets a bad reputation because people don't know how to use it correctly. I see the same old myths getting thrown around as gospel truth in almost every thread. For example here is a quick and dirty coffee table I made for my kids media/play room finished with Minwax semi-gloss. The base is pine which should never be stained or finished IMO so it got some milk paint.
I broke just about every "rule" to poly with this finish
1 - I shook the hell out of the can
2 - I thinned it
3 - I used a foam brush
4 - I wiped the brush on the edge of the container
5 - I didn't sand anything. This as 6 coats of poly and no piece of abrasive - sandpaper, steel wool, scotchbrite pads, etc ever touched this finish unitl I rubbed out the last coat.
The reason it looks so nice is I took my time and finished it properly. I pore filled with timbermate first, made sure my sanding was perfect by wiping with mineral spirits, gave the poly ample time between coats to set up, I stopped messing with it so it will self level properly without runs and sags. All I did to rub it out was rub it down with some #0000 steel wool dipped in furniture paste wax.
It took about 7 days to finish this - but if you want poly (or any finish) done properly, you have to follow the correct finishing schedule. Many think poly is a super fast finish - it's not at all
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Lumberjoe, sorry, but your technique had me chuckling, as I pictured my own occasional methods.
I've been known to break a few rules too. For example, the bush goes into a coffee can [with thinner], then gets forgotten. When it comes time to clean it, out of the gel it comes and, after running it up and down a cyclone fences a few times, it's ready to go (uh, yeah).
To be honest, I've done that numerous times, such as when loading a piece of wood with thinned poly. When done, you could use the finish to sand the next project. However, after running over it with 600 and oil or water for lubrication, then moving to finer material (e.g., pumice, rotten stone, plastic polish) with my PC random orbit (set to "2"), it looks like a sprayed finish.
I've been known to break a few rules too. For example, the bush goes into a coffee can [with thinner], then gets forgotten. When it comes time to clean it, out of the gel it comes and, after running it up and down a cyclone fences a few times, it's ready to go (uh, yeah).
To be honest, I've done that numerous times, such as when loading a piece of wood with thinned poly. When done, you could use the finish to sand the next project. However, after running over it with 600 and oil or water for lubrication, then moving to finer material (e.g., pumice, rotten stone, plastic polish) with my PC random orbit (set to "2"), it looks like a sprayed finish.
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A few people touched upon it but I'll repeat it.
Comparisons between lacquer and polyurethane mean very little until you start talking about specific products. There are many varieties of lacquer and many versions of polyurethane and not all of them perform the same. Many of the precat lacquers have similar durability to off-the-shelf polyurethanes. I suspect most of the post-cats will outperform almost all of the name brand poly finishes at the big box stores in every durability test. The professional 2 part polyurethanes will be even more durable than those postcats.
There is one major benefit that conventional lacquers and precats offer and that is ease of repair. Once a standard polyurethane finish does get a major scratch there's seldom an easy way to fix it. Lacquers can usually be buffed out or simply re-coated.
Comparisons between lacquer and polyurethane mean very little until you start talking about specific products. There are many varieties of lacquer and many versions of polyurethane and not all of them perform the same. Many of the precat lacquers have similar durability to off-the-shelf polyurethanes. I suspect most of the post-cats will outperform almost all of the name brand poly finishes at the big box stores in every durability test. The professional 2 part polyurethanes will be even more durable than those postcats.
There is one major benefit that conventional lacquers and precats offer and that is ease of repair. Once a standard polyurethane finish does get a major scratch there's seldom an easy way to fix it. Lacquers can usually be buffed out or simply re-coated.
I've only used the per-catalysed finishes a couple times and that was stepping in on someone else's job, to assist. My question would be, how much flex do they have compared to poly? A wood floor on centers has some flex and I wonder if it tolerates movement?
I know they use poly finishes on high end nautical applications, but like floor poly, the formula is altered from what you'd use on a picture frame. When there is going to be flex in the wood from moisture gain, they add more hardening oil (polymerized tung oil on the high end product), which softens the finish, reducing durability, but increasing flexibility. Of course, there is the addition of ultra violet protectants ([reflecting) too.
Since lacquer is 100% a surface coat, when the surface breeches, water can get in and the finish will hold it there, negatively impacting both material protected and the remainder of the finish. The same can happen with oil, but it can be thinned to penetrate, before adding a final coat. So, even if the surface coat breeches, it may be limited to the breech. No?
You are mistaken about the buffing of polys. Buffing is, exactly, how I get a spray quality finish using a brush. Of course, as far as re-coating goes, you are, pretty much, dead on. I've done touch ups by masking and careful touch up, but to call it a pain is an understatement.
None of this is to say lacquer is a fools errand. Like most things, there is no one good solution for everything. Said another way, I won't be painting any of my vehicles with it any time soon.
I know they use poly finishes on high end nautical applications, but like floor poly, the formula is altered from what you'd use on a picture frame. When there is going to be flex in the wood from moisture gain, they add more hardening oil (polymerized tung oil on the high end product), which softens the finish, reducing durability, but increasing flexibility. Of course, there is the addition of ultra violet protectants ([reflecting) too.
Since lacquer is 100% a surface coat, when the surface breeches, water can get in and the finish will hold it there, negatively impacting both material protected and the remainder of the finish. The same can happen with oil, but it can be thinned to penetrate, before adding a final coat. So, even if the surface coat breeches, it may be limited to the breech. No?
You are mistaken about the buffing of polys. Buffing is, exactly, how I get a spray quality finish using a brush. Of course, as far as re-coating goes, you are, pretty much, dead on. I've done touch ups by masking and careful touch up, but to call it a pain is an understatement.
None of this is to say lacquer is a fools errand. Like most things, there is no one good solution for everything. Said another way, I won't be painting any of my vehicles with it any time soon.
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@ Lumberjoe
There are other finishes just as good or better for vertical surfaces but they are professional finishes formulated specifically for spray application. I've used some conversion varnishes with excellent vertical cling. But yes, you are right that lacquers are much better suited to this task than any brushing polys from the home improvement centers.
@kelvancra
I've buffed polyurethanes too but it's a different animal. You can buff the final coat to get a nice finish. The catch is that few (if any at all) poly type finishes burn into underlying coats of finish. Typically buffing through the top layer will result in a visible seam between the different layers of finish. Very ugly. If the finish gets scratched deeply enough to go through the top layer, you can't buff it out.
Lacquers effectively create a single thick coating instead of many thin ones. As long as a scratch doesn't get into the wood or stain layer, you can buff it out to look like new.
Regarding flex, that will vary a lot based upon the product in question. Catalyzed finishes are generally harder than the non-catalyzed versions. However, there are 2-part products out there specifically formulated for boats and I suspect those are softer and more flexible than the stuff cabinet-makers use.
There are other finishes just as good or better for vertical surfaces but they are professional finishes formulated specifically for spray application. I've used some conversion varnishes with excellent vertical cling. But yes, you are right that lacquers are much better suited to this task than any brushing polys from the home improvement centers.
@kelvancra
I've buffed polyurethanes too but it's a different animal. You can buff the final coat to get a nice finish. The catch is that few (if any at all) poly type finishes burn into underlying coats of finish. Typically buffing through the top layer will result in a visible seam between the different layers of finish. Very ugly. If the finish gets scratched deeply enough to go through the top layer, you can't buff it out.
Lacquers effectively create a single thick coating instead of many thin ones. As long as a scratch doesn't get into the wood or stain layer, you can buff it out to look like new.
Regarding flex, that will vary a lot based upon the product in question. Catalyzed finishes are generally harder than the non-catalyzed versions. However, there are 2-part products out there specifically formulated for boats and I suspect those are softer and more flexible than the stuff cabinet-makers use.
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About 30 years ago there was a scientific study of all the available wood finishes at that time to determine which was the best (the need for speed of a production shop was not a consideration). poly, lacquer, shellac, tung oil, linseed oil, etc. The winner was…a combination of 1 part poly 2 parts Tung or Linseed oil applied by sanding it into the finish with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper thus filling the wood pores with bits of wood, poly, and oil. I finished a black walnut coffee table with this method back then that's still going strong today. You won't get a wet glass like finish with this method but the grain pops nicely and while messy its pretty much idiot proof which back then was an advantage in my case.
JAAune, I've never had a problem with blowing though to another layer, but have seen poly coats chip off, of their own accord, when not applied right, so I don't know what I've been doing wrong all these forty years.
![Image]()
I am quite serious when I say I polish poly to a smooth surface.
To be fair, I used to buy my two party epoxy in [two] five gallon buckets and used it for ten years before I finally got the company's directions. It was only after that I learned I could not do what I had been doing for all those years - apply epoxy to a vertical surface.
I am quite serious when I say I polish poly to a smooth surface.
To be fair, I used to buy my two party epoxy in [two] five gallon buckets and used it for ten years before I finally got the company's directions. It was only after that I learned I could not do what I had been doing for all those years - apply epoxy to a vertical surface.
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You didn't do anything wrong with the poly. You just misinterpreted my post. A proper buffing job on new finish shouldn't cut through the final coat into the underlying layers and that's why it's possible to buff out polyurethane finishes to a mirror gloss. It is possible for inexperienced people to get over-zealous with the buffing and go too deep but that's caused by a bad buffing job and not the polyurethane.
Now take that table top and put a deep scratch in it with a steak knife. Chances are the scratch cannot be buffed out to an invisible repair because the lines from the layers will start showing as the scratch is sanded out. That's the trade off between lacquers and polyurethane. Polyurethane is usually harder to damage but harder to repair. Nitrocellulose lacquer and precat lacquer tend to be less tough but can be easily repaired.
Now take that table top and put a deep scratch in it with a steak knife. Chances are the scratch cannot be buffed out to an invisible repair because the lines from the layers will start showing as the scratch is sanded out. That's the trade off between lacquers and polyurethane. Polyurethane is usually harder to damage but harder to repair. Nitrocellulose lacquer and precat lacquer tend to be less tough but can be easily repaired.
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Varnish isn't necessarily tougher as the stuff varies a lot by brand with some brands having little durability. There are studies that prove this and a long time ago I linked to one in another thread but didn't save the url. Finding the toughest possible finish is important if you're mass producing furniture and especially selling to the Walmart crowd but if you aren't abusing your furniture then any of the film finishes are fine. I have end tables finished in shellac that have held up fine after a decade other than when a tipsy guest spilled whiskey on it but then shellac is about 100x easier to repair than poly. I even used shellac as a floor finish in one room while my wife used varnish in another, guess which held up better? If you guess varnish you'd be wrong.
Regarding shellac as a finish, I worked on the oldest Queen Ann in Olympia, Washington. The house was almost entirely made of cedar. That included the floors, which were finished in amber shellac. Needless to say, cedar is not the hardest flooring material. Still, that eighty-plus year old house was doing just fine.
When I had to add about sixteen square feet of cedar to the floor and finish, matching the shellac required nothing more than going to the big box and picking up a can of Bulls Eye.
Though the house had been neglected the last four decades, the floors were still in surprising shape. The shellac had made it easy for the home owner to tend their own maintenance up to that point. That, likely, would not have happened with lacquer or poly.
That brings up a point: No finish is maintenance free. Because of that, we, sometimes, need to take into consideration the ease of maintenance. For example, a wood fence will last if painted, but even painting is too much for many homeowners. However, slopping a little non-hardening oil on is a breeze and, if done aggressively, will stop cracking and splitting, since the oil replaces lost moisture and swells the wood. Something paint and every other surface coat cannot do.
When I had to add about sixteen square feet of cedar to the floor and finish, matching the shellac required nothing more than going to the big box and picking up a can of Bulls Eye.
Though the house had been neglected the last four decades, the floors were still in surprising shape. The shellac had made it easy for the home owner to tend their own maintenance up to that point. That, likely, would not have happened with lacquer or poly.
That brings up a point: No finish is maintenance free. Because of that, we, sometimes, need to take into consideration the ease of maintenance. For example, a wood fence will last if painted, but even painting is too much for many homeowners. However, slopping a little non-hardening oil on is a breeze and, if done aggressively, will stop cracking and splitting, since the oil replaces lost moisture and swells the wood. Something paint and every other surface coat cannot do.
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