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What is your "Go-To" All-Around epoxy system

2K views 22 replies 12 participants last post by  CaptainKlutz 
#1 Ā· (Edited by Moderator)
I've been using the 5 minute epoxy in various forms and manufacturers mostly for void & defect fills. I just got an order for a hutch that will likely need a fairly long open time to get glued up. Decided I need to go ahead and buy a bigger volume of some better stuff with a slower hardener.

Got a bit lost down the rabbit hole last night looking at West Systems & Total Boat epoxy systems. I usually use a bit of black to color the fills, but sometimes leave it clear if it's an accent. The 105 is described as being an amber hue and I cannot find a color description for the total boat. Both versions have a clear version but the price jumps a bit and with the West Systems it appears that the mix ratio drops from 5:1 to 3:1which compounds the price.

For those of you using epoxy systems which are the best for your work and the $$$ to purchase?
 
#2 Ā·
I got the Total Boat epoxy for a repair I had to do last year. I like it. At the time, they didn't have the pumps in stock, so I have to measure it manually.

I don't use epoxy that often, so it was definitely much more than I needed in terms of quantity, but I needed something thinner to work its way down into a crack I was trying to repair in a piece of furniture.
 
#4 Ā· (Edited by Moderator)
I ve been using the 5 minute epoxy in various forms and manufacturers mostly for void & defect fills. I just got an order for a hutch that will likely need a fairly long open time to get glued up.

- ChefHDAN
For a glue with a long open time, take a look at liquid hide glue. If you do choose to go with epoxy, but sure to buy a general purpose product and not a casting resin. I'm only familiar with the System Three line, but their T-88 is formulated for structural applications. Any general purpose product will work as well for wood joints.
 
#6 Ā·
It probably depend upon how large the voids and defects you are filling are. I have not tried the West Systems or Total boat because I am usually filling voids that require an ounce or less and Devcon 5 minute and 30 minute work very well for me. I almost never fill voids without some kind of filler or dye so I don't worry about amber vs. clear. I use the 5 minute when the fill is simple or on a curved surface like a bowl for example so it will set up more quickly and I use the 30 minute when I need more open time. One thing I like to do is mix brass or copper powder into 30 minute epoxy. This gives me time to get enough of the powder mixed in and work it into a dough or putty consistency that can be pressed into voids.
 
#8 Ā·
I follow to a YouTube woodworker named Mike Farrington, he makes great videos building interesting pieces. In one of his builts, he mention using a slow setting epoxy when gluing up the case of the cabinet. At the video description, he only mention his favorite glue (Titebond III) but doesn't mention the Epoxy stuffā€¦Perhaps you can comment and interact with the guy , He replies to every single commentā€¦.here is the link:

 
#9 Ā·
I like West System for building things like my Hovercraft. It takes longer to dry but it penetrates the wood about 1/32" and you can never break the glue bond before the wood. But for filling and quick repairs, I like the tubes of Harbor Freight 5 minute epoxy. It is a real good product and I like it because with the tubes I use it all up and don't have to wait for it to drain down the bottle like the bigger bottle kinds. I spritz it with some black spray paint to color it and it works great.

The West System I have is about 30 yr old and the hardener turned red. I read an article from Gougeon Brothers about the tests they did and with the age reddening and it was still just as strong only dark colored. I can attest to that because mine is it still every bit as good with the red color. I just used some for gluing steel panels together where I could not weld and it held very well.

I have heard good things about Systems Three epoxy and that it costs less than West System, but I have not used it..

Cheers, Jim
 
#10 Ā· (Edited by Moderator)
The West System I have is about 30 yr old and the hardener turned red. I read an article from Gougeon Brothers about the tests they did and with the age reddening and it was still just as strong only dark colored. I can attest to that because mine is it still every bit as good with the red color. I just used some for gluing steel panels together where I could not weld and it held very well.
- Jim Jakosh
I can verify that as wellā€¦ Although mine was probably only about 10-12 years old, it still worked perfectly:

Automotive tire Gas Glove Auto part Wood


As for a 'go-to' epoxy, it depends on what the application is. For adhesive stuff and the quick fix of a broken part, the 5 and 30 minute tube stuff you buy at the BORG works well. I usually go for the 30 minute stuff as the 5 minute flavor tends to kick off way too fast for me. The syringe packaging is also very convenient.

As for larger void fills, casting and stuff, I try to use a casting epoxy, like Alumilite, because you need quite a bit and it is cheaper than West or System Three. It does have a nice open time that allows you to mix and tint it without worrying about it going off. I will frequently pour some voids with about half of what I mix up, and stick the remainder in the refrigerator to make the open time even longer - up to over an hour. That way you can go back and top it off after the first pour settles into all the hidden nooks and voids. My one gripe about Alumilite is that it is a PITA to pour out of the bottles, particularly when you just need a small amount. My solution was 1) to find out the actual ratio of resin to hardener by WEIGHT (not volume), and 2) put pumps on the bottles to make dispensing small amounts a lot easier:

Brown Liquid Fluid Cosmetics Bottle


For structural stuff, West or System Three are probably the top two go to resinsā€¦. but they are pricey. The good news is that they do last darn near forever, and you can pick the hardener you want to alter the open time. They are not perfectly clear when cured though (unless you use the special hardener), but can be easily colored using all sorts of stuff (pigments, powders, dyes, metal shavings, chalk, etcā€¦).

Cheers,
Brad
 

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#12 Ā·
[/QUOTE]
For a glue with a long open time, take a look at liquid hide glue. If you do choose to go with epoxy, but sure to buy a general purpose product and not a casting resin. I m only familiar with the System Three line, but their T-88 is formulated for structural applications. Any general purpose product will work as well for wood joints.

- Rich
[/QUOTE]

Thanks Rich, the bit I do know is the differences between epoxy & the resin. Have been playing a bit with the hide glue, works very well when I'm doing repair work, cleans up very well.
 
#13 Ā·
I have used the System Three epoxy for building a couple of wooden kayaks. The curing time was just right for the process. So far it has lasted about twenty years.

- Phil32
Thanks Phil, I have not looked at System 3, will check it out.
 
#14 Ā·
It probably depend upon how large the voids and defects you are filling are. I have not tried the West Systems or Total boat because I am usually filling voids that require an ounce or less and Devcon 5 minute and 30 minute work very well for me. I almost never fill voids without some kind of filler or dye so I don t worry about amber vs. clear. I use the 5 minute when the fill is simple or on a curved surface like a bowl for example so it will set up more quickly and I use the 30 minute when I need more open time. One thing I like to do is mix brass or copper powder into 30 minute epoxy. This gives me time to get enough of the powder mixed in and work it into a dough or putty consistency that can be pressed into voids.

- Lazyman
Great tip for the filler thanks Nathan, the 5 minute I've used is a bit thicker and seems to fight going into some of the smaller checks I'm trying to fill/stabilize many of my customers are looking for the whole "reclaimed" spin and it can get challenging to make all of the wood work without chucking it in the burn bucket.
 
#15 Ā·
I follow to a YouTube woodworker named Mike Farrington, he makes great videos building interesting pieces. In one of his builts, he mention using a slow setting epoxy when gluing up the case of the cabinet. At the video description, he only mention his favorite glue (Titebond III) but doesn t mention the Epoxy stuffā€¦Perhaps you can comment and interact with the guy , He replies to every single commentā€¦.here is the link:



- Francisco Luna-Posada
Gracias Francisco! I love Mike and all of his work from The Boardroom
 
#16 Ā·
The West System I have is about 30 yr old and the hardener turned red. I read an article from Gougeon Brothers about the tests they did and with the age reddening and it was still just as strong only dark colored. I can attest to that because mine is it still every bit as good with the red color. I just used some for gluing steel panels together where I could not weld and it held very well.

I have heard good things about Systems Three epoxy and that it costs less than West System, but I have not used it..

Cheers, Jim

- Jim Jakosh
Thanks Jim, one of my concerns is the shelf life, my day job has me figuring out cost per ounce regularly and I'm not above buying more than I need for a better price, nice to know it will definitely not go solid in the can on me.
 
#17 Ā·
As for larger void fills, casting and stuff, I try to use a casting epoxy, like Alumilite, because you need quite a bit and it is cheaper than West or System Three. It does have a nice open time that allows you to mix and tint it without worrying about it going off. I will frequently pour some voids with about half of what I mix up, and stick the remainder in the refrigerator to make the open time even longer - up to over an hour. That way you can go back and top it off after the first pour settles into all the hidden nooks and voids. My one gripe about Alumilite is that it is a PITA to pour out of the bottles, particularly when you just need a small amount. My solution was 1) to find out the actual ratio of resin to hardener by WEIGHT (not volume), and 2) put pumps on the bottles to make dispensing small amounts a lot easier:
Thanks Brad, I was not exactly thinking of casting but you make a good point I guess because a large void would really just be a mold wouldn't it??? I'm going to do some more pricing and check out the system 3 product mentioned. I do have a pretty interesting piece of quilted sycamore in the "one day I'll have the perfect project for this board" stack, perhaps I can overcome my aversion to all of the folks doing river tables to see if it could be coolā€¦
 
#18 Ā· (Edited by Moderator)
I have used West, System 3, and MAS for structural work in boatbuilding. They each have their price tradeoffs and you need to select the right hardener (tropical/slow/medium/fast) for your application and climate. But at the end of the day, they all work fine. I would not hesitate to use whichever is most convenient.

However, you do need to watch for "amine blush". Many epoxies, as they cure, exude a waxy amine compound to their surface. This needs to be washed off with ordinary soap & water before you try to put any other coating on top. Because almost no finish (except dirt) sticks to wax. The manufacturers will tell you which hardeners or mixes are "blush free" in their literature.

I would never use one of those epoxies for any type of casting. They are designed for structural work, which means generally thin layers. Thick pots of those named epoxies cure very fast and go exothermic - exothermic enough to start fires. Look for casting resins if casting is what you want to do.

I've also used quite a bit of the 5-minute and 30-minute epoxies for repair projects. They also work fine and seem similar in strength to the boat-building epoxies I've used - with the obvious caveat about their cure times. I haven't tried to surface finish any of those repairs, so can't offer advice about whether they "blush". Lacking data, it wouldn't hurt to wash them down before applying anything over the top of them.
 
#19 Ā· (Edited by Moderator)
Great tip for the filler thanks Nathan, the 5 minute I ve used is a bit thicker and seems to fight going into some of the smaller checks I m trying to fill/stabilize many of my customers are looking for the whole "reclaimed" spin and it can get challenging to make all of the wood work without chucking it in the burn bucket.

- ChefHDAN
When the checks are too small for epoxy, I usually use thin CA. It is a lot easier than messing with epoxy. CA can stain surrounding wood so you may need to apply the first coat of finish first or at least put some around the crack. I will sometimes just rub some paste wax around the crack since it usually need to be sanded smooth anyway. Starbond has some colors epoxy which can look pretty cool too.

BTW, if you put enough of the brass or copper powder into the epoxy, it almost polishes to look like metal inlay.
 
#20 Ā·
When the checks are too small for epoxy, I usually use thin CA. It is a lot easier than messing with epoxy. CA can stain surrounding wood so you may need to apply the first coat of finish first or at least put some around the crack. I will sometimes just rub some paste wax around the crack since it usually need to be sanded smooth anyway. Starbond has some colors epoxy which can look pretty cool too.

BTW, if you put enough of the brass or copper powder into the epoxy, it almost polishes to look like metal inlay.
- Lazyman
Thanks Nathan, was actually trying to add CA glue to a fastener and abrasives order last week and the vendor was out of stock on everything but a huge Mosers kit that was a bit of overkill, what brand of CA do you use?
 
#21 Ā· (Edited by Moderator)
Right now I'm using Starbond because I wanted to try the colored CA but I've also used Stickfast. Both work well for filling cracks. BTW, I also prefer CA over epoxy when filling slight larger voids like worm holes with things like turquoise of coffee grounds. You can pack the void with the dry material and then dribble CA over it until it is level with the surface. I usually use medium or even thick CA for that.
 
#23 Ā·
IMHO - For best epoxy performance, need to pick proper material for job.

Brands like; West Systems, System Three, and MAS produce many different types of epoxies. Mentioning a name is like saying a single auto maker is great at making every kind of vehicle; which is never true. But when using the RIGHT type of each brand, you will succeed. They key is using right epoxy for job.

Most of the retail brand epoxies sold in volume (quart/gallon) above are laminating epoxies. They are intended to be applied in thin films (< 3/32"), and used for bonding fabric to wood/paper. They work well for wood to wood bonding, but will not be strongest glue joint possible. Need to use a structural epoxy for highest strength in critical load applications. But since wood tends to fail before glue joint; few know or care if the epoxy being used is 'best' for most applications? :) Only if using hardest woods in high stress design (or in wood to metal applications;, will average user see the difference in bond strength and need to use structural epoxy.

The challenge with structural epoxy is they are designed to reach peak strength with defined thickness bond line, using a long slow cure to minimize cure shrinkage related stress. Most epoxies have similar strength with minimal 0.002-0.010 thick bond line. It is when you have rough surfaces, and need to fill a 1/16 gap that you really need a structural epoxy system. As mentioned above System Three T-88 is one such material. If need to quantities larger than sizes sold at retail; folks at Ellsworth adhesives carry bulk Loctite and 3M structural epoxies used in commercial operations.

Typical laminating or structural epoxy mentioned have one serious issue: Thick section use or gap filling.
When need to fill any gap over 1/8" regular epoxies can self heat; which causes thermal run away and drastically shortened cure times. Another defect with thick section cure and excess heat is darker amber tone as amine curatives overheat. So this reason, it always best to use the slowest curing epoxy your application can tolerate. If you can afford to wait 24hrs for cure with slowest epoxies, you will be rewarded with lower stress joint, and typically less color change.

So what to use?

IME - Best epoxy for filling large 1/4"+ holes/voids/cracks in a casting type epoxy. When filling smaller defects, just about any epoxy can be used, as long as you don't mind amber color after cure. If you want clear fill, have use special clear hardener or epoxy designed as clear epoxy system. West Systems #207 hardener is clearest version they offer. Many other companies sell clear table top resin systems that work well for crack filling slabs, Just don't exceed the thickness recommendations.

Note about coloring epoxy:
Best way to color epoxy is with powdered pigments, or a pigment dispersion. Pigments help hide (but don't remove) the amber tones from curatives. There are tons of online suppliers selling epoxy pigment powders. The folks at Ecopoxy are one source with wild array of colors and metallic effects. System Three offers pigment dispersion that are easy to use.

If you want to be cheap, dried coffee grounds or dash of toner from a spent printer cartridge works as it does not take much powder to color epoxy. Can also use standard acrylic paint (artist colors in tubes, not kids paints in bottle) to color your epoxy resin. Add a max of a pea sized dollop, for every couple ounces of resin. Be sure to add the pigment to the resin only, and get it mixed in well; BEFORE adding the curative.
If you do use an excessive amount of acrylic paint, if will soften the epoxy. But when colored epoxy is used as wood filler under a top coat; no one will notice. Epoxy will also soften slightly when using solvent based dyes/tints; as the solvent carriers are glycol that don't react with epoxy, and take days to evaporate. Liquid tint/dye (like Transtint dyes) will also change based on curative color, and shift with amber tone; and are not best epoxy coloring choice.

Hope this helps!
 
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