LumberJocks

Porter Cable 4216 Jig / Through Dovfetails

  • Advertise with us

« back to Joinery forum

Forum topic by LGLDSR73 posted 09-20-2021 12:12 PM 377 views 0 times favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


09-20-2021 12:12 PM

Topic tags/keywords: 4216 through dovetailss

I have enough scrap pine that were I to start a fire with it I would raise the overall temperature of the Earth by 10F.

I have the Porter Cable 4216 Jig and am working with 1/2” stock. Initially when following Porter Cables instructions for lining up the “patented” lines over where the horizontal and vertical boards meet there was tremendous play between the two pieces. PC’s remedy for this is to move the template towards you for a tighter fit and away from you for a looser fit.

I did that on the the Tail and Pins and overshot the amount of movement because now you couldn’t join them together with a sledge hammer. I adjusted for the Tails and made the the Pins at the same adjustment. Not sure if that was the correct thing to do.

Then I read that adjusting the Routers depth of cut will in so many words accomplish the same thing. Is this correct? And if so, how much do you want to adjust the depth of cut at the Router? 1/32? 1/16? What is a good starting point?

Lastly, which method do you try first?

This is not going to beat me, I am going to nail it.

As always, thank you.

Best,

Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16


14 replies so far

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

8975 posts in 1952 days


#1 posted 09-20-2021 03:14 PM

them Porter Cable jigs are not much fun to set up BUT once you get it dialed in your golden :<)))))))))))

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN :<))

View Rich's profile

Rich

7446 posts in 1829 days


#2 posted 09-20-2021 03:18 PM

For through dovetails, the cut depth should match the thickness of the mating piece, or a hair deeper to allow you to trim the joint flush.

The tails are fixed by the diameter of the router bit. You adjust the joint fit during the cutting of the pins by moving the template forward or backward to change the pin size. You can start tight and gradually adjust it to fit.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


#3 posted 09-20-2021 04:12 PM



them Porter Cable jigs are not much fun to set up BUT once you get it dialed in your golden :<)))))))))))

- GR8HUNTER


“REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN :<))”

...I keep telling myself that….

Thanks Tony!

Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16

View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


#4 posted 09-20-2021 04:18 PM



For through dovetails, the cut depth should match the thickness of the mating piece, or a hair deeper to allow you to trim the joint flush.

The tails are fixed by the diameter of the router bit. You adjust the joint fit during the cutting of the pins by moving the template forward or backward to change the pin size. You can start tight and gradually adjust it to fit.

- Rich


Thanks Bob. So you’re saying do not adjust the template for the Tails…just for the Pins?

Many thanks,

Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16

View Rich's profile

Rich

7446 posts in 1829 days


#5 posted 09-20-2021 04:51 PM


Thanks Bob. So you re saying do not adjust the template for the Tails…just for the Pins?

Many thanks,

Lyman

- LGLDSR73

That’s right, Fred :) The tails are fixed by the fingers on the template and the geometry of the router bit. Only the depth needs to be adjusted. I did forget to mention that you should cut the tails first, since you’ll be sneaking up on a good fit when cutting the pins.

Unlike half-blind, there’s no quick formula for doing the through dovetails. You can’t leave the jig set up, since you have to change the template for the two cuts. You’ll be going through the pin cutting adjustments each time you start a new project, although I’m sure with practice, you’ll be able to get closer on your initial pass.

Since you’re almost always making more than one joint for a project (a simple box requires four), the correct process would be to cut all of your tail boards first. Then, do your pin board adjustment to get a good fit. After that, you can cut the rest of the pin boards straight away without fussing with the jig.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


#6 posted 09-20-2021 06:01 PM


Thanks Bob. So you re saying do not adjust the template for the Tails…just for the Pins?

Many thanks,

Lyman

- LGLDSR73

That s right, Fred :) The tails are fixed by the fingers on the template and the geometry of the router bit. Only the depth needs to be adjusted. I did forget to mention that you should cut the tails first, since you ll be sneaking up on a good fit when cutting the pins.

Unlike half-blind, there s no quick formula for doing the through dovetails. You can t leave the jig set up, since you have to change the template for the two cuts. You ll be going through the pin cutting adjustments each time you start a new project, although I m sure with practice, you ll be able to get closer on your initial pass.

Since you re almost always making more than one joint for a project (a simple box requires four), the correct process would be to cut all of your tail boards first. Then, do your pin board adjustment to get a good fit. After that, you can cut the rest of the pin boards straight away without fussing with the jig.

- Rich


Okay, I get it now. I called you Bob. But you’re Rich. Brain cells are dying. A guy at work (Richard) that I’ve worked with for the past four months I began calling ‘John’ the other night for no apparent reason. I am beginning to understand what my parents meant when they would tell me I’m ‘Special’, lol.

RICH, thanks for the great reply. I would make the Tails first, however many, then the Pins. It seems like the only smart way to do it.

>The tails are fixed by the fingers on the template and the geometry of the router bit. Only the depth needs to be adjusted.

Will raising the Bit tighten or loosen the Tails when changing depth? I would assume in small increments, perhaps 1/32”?

Many thanks for the great input!

Best,

Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16

View Rich's profile

Rich

7446 posts in 1829 days


#7 posted 09-20-2021 07:14 PM


Will raising the Bit tighten or loosen the Tails when changing depth? I would assume in small increments, perhaps 1/32”?

Lyman

- LGLDSR73

Glad to help, Lyman. Yeah, technically raising the bit will affect the width of the tail openings at the top, but since it’s important to set the cut depth to the thickness of the pin board, it’s really not an option to adjust the joint. Just think of that one as fixed, and adjust the joint fit by moving the template during the pin operation.

I’m re-reading my earlier post and realize I overlooked one thing. Since the cuts for the tail board are straight through, the location of the template front-to-back isn’t critical. It only needs to be far enough back to allow the bit to go completely through. That means that it is possible to set the brass knobs to lock the bracket in position for the pin cuts, and come back to them later. Be sure the boards are the same thickness as it’s set for.

Even then, it’s risky.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


#8 posted 09-20-2021 09:21 PM

Will raising the Bit tighten or loosen the Tails when changing depth? I would assume in small increments, perhaps 1/32”?

Lyman

- LGLDSR73

Glad to help, Lyman. Yeah, technically raising the bit will affect the width of the tail openings at the top, but since it s important to set the cut depth to the thickness of the pin board, it s really not an option to adjust the joint. Just think of that one as fixed, and adjust the joint fit by moving the template during the pin operation.

I m re-reading my earlier post and realize I overlooked one thing. Since the cuts for the tail board are straight through, the location of the template front-to-back isn t critical. It only needs to be far enough back to allow the bit to go completely through. That means that it is possible to set the brass knobs to lock the bracket in position for the pin cuts, and come back to them later. Be sure the boards are the same thickness as it s set for.

Even then, it s risky.

- Rich


Many thanks Rich. Excellent information. You lost me here though: “Be sure the boards are the same thickness as it s set for.”. Can you elaborate a bit please? GOT IT: I believe you were referring to what you wrote earlier: “For through dovetails, the cut depth should match the thickness of the mating piece, or a hair deeper to allow you to trim the joint flush.”.

Thanks!

Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16

View Rich's profile

Rich

7446 posts in 1829 days


#9 posted 09-20-2021 10:05 PM


GOT IT: I believe you were referring to what you wrote earlier: “For through dovetails, the cut depth should match the thickness of the mating piece, or a hair deeper to allow you to trim the joint flush.”.

Thanks!

Lyman

- LGLDSR73

There’s that, and honestly I don’t know off the top of my head how board thickness will affect the fit of the joint. In other words, if you set it up with a 3/4” pin board and a 1/2” tail board for a good fit, would it still work if you switched the two boards around and only compensated by adjusting the bit depth? Got me, but if I had to guess, I’d say “no.”

Bottom line is, just follow the process each time and you’ll wind up with good results. The through dovetails have the benefit of being able to sneak up on the fit. That’s something you can’t do with half-blinds. They’re either right, or you saw them off, adjust and repeat.

One bonus tip if you do want to cut some half-blinds, start with your first set of pin and tail boards a few inches too long so you can cut off the bad ones until you get it right. Then, simply cut them to the final length on the other ends, leaving the dovetail ends. The nice thing about half-blinds is that the only thing that affects joint fit is the depth of the router bit. Once you get that right, you can register it (I milled a board of the correct thickness and drilled a 1” hole in it to set the depth easily using any hard surface), and it’ll work for any thickness. The only adjustment needed for that is to change the template position to compensate for different tail board thicknesses that you might use.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


#10 posted 09-20-2021 10:47 PM


GOT IT: I believe you were referring to what you wrote earlier: “For through dovetails, the cut depth should match the thickness of the mating piece, or a hair deeper to allow you to trim the joint flush.”.

Thanks!

Lyman

- LGLDSR73

There s that, and honestly I don t know off the top of my head how board thickness will affect the fit of the joint. In other words, if you set it up with a 3/4” pin board and a 1/2” tail board for a good fit, would it still work if you switched the two boards around and only compensated by adjusting the bit depth? Got me, but if I had to guess, I d say “no.”

Bottom line is, just follow the process each time and you ll wind up with good results. The through dovetails have the benefit of being able to sneak up on the fit. That s something you can t do with half-blinds. They re either right, or you saw them off, adjust and repeat.

One bonus tip if you do want to cut some half-blinds, start with your first set of pin and tail boards a few inches too long so you can cut off the bad ones until you get it right. Then, simply cut them to the final length on the other ends, leaving the dovetail ends. The nice thing about half-blinds is that the only thing that affects joint fit is the depth of the router bit. Once you get that right, you can register it (I milled a board of the correct thickness and drilled a 1” hole in it to set the depth easily using any hard surface), and it ll work for any thickness. The only adjustment needed for that is to change the template position to compensate for different tail board thicknesses that you might use.

- Rich


Thanks again, Rich. Oddly enough I don’t have any issues with half blinds. Go figure. Stock for both Tail and Pins is 1/2”. I am going to get this right no matter how long it takes to get through this thick Italian head.

Really appreciate all of your input, it’s been a phenomenal help. Will let you know how I make out. Stay tuned and thanks again!

Best,
Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16

View Madmark2's profile

Madmark2

3093 posts in 1828 days


#11 posted 09-21-2021 02:41 AM

I had that jig over 20 yrs ago. I got it perfect – once.

This time around I wanted something that was more ornate than blah dovetails and that I could use with my big table router (the router is big, not the table). After searching and suggestions here I found the Fast-Joint Mini—review HERE


Joint sample.

-- The hump with the stump and the pump!

View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


#12 posted 09-21-2021 02:57 AM



I had that jig over 20 yrs ago. I got it perfect – once.

This time around I wanted something that was more ornate than blah dovetails and that I could use with my big table router (the router is big, not the table). After searching and suggestions here I found the Fast-Joint Mini—review HERE


Joint sample.

- Madmark2


Fascinating! Thanks for sharing, Mark!

Best,

Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16

View KeithBook's profile

KeithBook

1 post in 26 days


#13 posted 09-21-2021 07:33 AM

Hi….As a rule, the kind of dance you have is a bit touchy to set up, however alright once set up.

Right off the bat, are the two bits of wood a similar thickness? If not, the dance generally requires some change. Includes moving the format on the highest point of the dance out (towards you) or in (away from you). The manual will give unequivocal guidelines.

Also, the bit cutting profundity given, is a beginning stage – it must be raised or brought down, to change the fit. Once more, counsel the manual. I presume this might be your concern.

Thirdly the piece you place in the dance upward, must be balanced by a predetermined sum, comparable to the flat piece (I take it you are directing the two together?). The dances frequently accompany a bushing to accomplish the offset, yet and still, after all that, some finessing might be required.

View LGLDSR73's profile

LGLDSR73

132 posts in 3006 days


#14 posted 09-21-2021 01:21 PM



Hi….As a rule, the kind of dance you have is a bit touchy to set up, however alright once set up.

Right off the bat, are the two bits of wood a similar thickness? If not, the dance generally requires some change. Includes moving the format on the highest point of the dance out (towards you) or in (away from you). The manual will give unequivocal guidelines.

Also, the bit cutting profundity given, is a beginning stage – it must be raised or brought down, to change the fit. Once more, counsel the manual. I presume this might be your concern.

Thirdly the piece you place in the dance upward, must be balanced by a predetermined sum, comparable to the flat piece (I take it you are directing the two together?). The dances frequently accompany a bushing to accomplish the offset, yet and still, after all that, some finessing might be required.

- KeithBook


Thanks Keith! The stock thickness is the same for Tails and Pins. Prior to routing both are aligned with the horizontal scrap atop.

For both the Tails and Pins I am using the built in PC depth stop. Initially I was confused as to whether or not to adjust the Bit or the Template for a good fit. Currently I am adjusting the latter.

Thank you for the advice!

Best,

Lyman

-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son (Jesus), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - JOHN 3:16

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com