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Forum topic by mkon posted 07-13-2021 09:49 PM 478 views 1 time favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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mkon

13 posts in 191 days


07-13-2021 09:49 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question

First time poster, long time reader.

The topic of a concave cutting jointer has been discussed at nauseam across the internet, but I’m running into a pretty weird set of circumstances and I can’t tell if I’m over thinking this or getting too hung up. hopefully someone can tell me I’m just being ridiculous or help guide me.

I just got a new G0490x delivered after dealing with the headache of going through a Warranty return for warped and incorrectly ground tables. I threw a 50in Veritas and 24in Starrett Straight Edge on the tables, and have discovered a significant crown in the new Infeed Table. Specifically, with no pressure on the straight edge, 5 thou (0.005 in) near the cutter head, and 6 thou (0.006 in) on the outboard end of the table.

Face Jointing a board approximately 60 inches long and checking with the 50in Veritas and feeler gauges, I’ve managed to tweak the setup of the infeed table so the 2/3 or so is co-planer to the outfeed to the point where I am getting about a 0.004 (4 thou) concave cut, along the length of the boards.

I am waiting for Grizzly to get back to me on how they are going to resolve the infeed table issue, but in the mean time I need to get some stuff done.

My current Setup:
- Outfeed in plane / level to cutter within 0.001 thousands (smallest gauge I have)
- Outfeed Height is set about 0.0005in below TDC of knives (Checked with OneWay Multi-Gage)
- Infeed co-planer to Outfeed about 2/3 of total length of table, outboard end is down about 0.010in.

I tested two 66in. pieces and could only get a 10 thou feeler gauge between them. They were touching at the end like a sprung joint. I haven’t had time to do an edge joint yet, but I suspect I’ll end up about the same.

Am I over thinking this? Any other adjustments that could be recommended? Should I just ride with it until Grizz sorts out the issue for me?

Thanks in advance!


14 replies so far

View bigblockyeti's profile

bigblockyeti

7981 posts in 3055 days


#1 posted 07-13-2021 10:04 PM

I can’t think of anything offhand, I have the Delta DJ-20 which the Grizzly G0490 was “cloned” from and I dialed mine in over 10 years ago and didn’t even have to touch it when it moved to storage and ultimately into my current garage. While the tables should be better than that, I don’t know if Grizzly regularly makes them better than that and if you tell them you’re getting 0.004” on a 60” board, they might care even less.

I wish I could be of more help and I hope Grizzly is able to offer some sort of resolution.

-- "Lack of effort will result in failure with amazing predictability" - Me

View Ocelot's profile

Ocelot

3722 posts in 3972 days


#2 posted 07-13-2021 10:22 PM

My G0490x has a slight twist in the fence, but I have found that the pieces I joint are as square as I can detect. When I square the fence to the table, I make sure it’s square at the head. So, depending on how you handle the warp, it might can be set up so that it doesn’t much matter. Still it’s very annoying and troublesome, I”m sure.

What flatness spec do they claim to use? Have they acknoledged that yours is outside their specs?

-- I intended to be a woodworker, but turned into a tool and lumber collector.

View mkon's profile

mkon

13 posts in 191 days


#3 posted 07-13-2021 10:49 PM

Thanks for the replies.

So Grizzly has acknowledged that the Infeed table is out of spec. They shoot for better than 0.003in across the entire table, according to what I’ve been told. In this case it’s now the second G0490x that I’ve had issues with. I expect some fit and finish issues with Grizzly, I own enough of their tools, but not this, this is pretty major.

I would have preferred that there was a hollow in the infeed table (still not ideal) and not a crown because I can’t even dial in the Infeed co-planer to the outfeed with a big ol’ bump in the middle of the table.

I did a little more toying around and I ran the same 2 – 60 in boards face jointed against the exact same setup.

One came out with a 0.010” concave across a 50” straight edge
One came out with a 0.006” concave across a 50” straight edge

I’m going to attribute the above to technique.

Despite building a lot of stuff, I can’t tell if I’m over thinking this level of error, or if it’s just compounded by the frustration of dealing with ANOTHER busted jointer….

For reference I need to run through tenons through the face and I’m mostly concerned that my shoulders are going to be gappy, at 0.010” the gap in the shoulder may send me into an Office Space level printer smashing rage.

Thanks

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

4223 posts in 3132 days


#4 posted 07-14-2021 04:08 AM

3 thousand on the tables sounds great. I remember when 7 was considered with spec on jointers made in China.
To set the outfeed table height using the handwheel lower it below the infeed. Take a cut on the edge of a fairly straight board.
When you get about 4or5 inches out over the outfeed stop. Raise the outfeed until it touches bottom of the board.
This is the true top of the cutting circle for your jointer.
Good Luck

-- Aj

View mkon's profile

mkon

13 posts in 191 days


#5 posted 07-14-2021 03:30 PM

Hey Aj, I set the outfeed with a dial indicator, since I find it easier to put numbers to things vs using my eyes, which are aging at a rate faster than the rest of me.

I finished squaring up the two boards again after adjusting the outfeed height one more to dead level and didn’t find much improvement. Edge jointing left me with a gap of about 0.015” leaving me with a nice, though unintended sprung joint. I think it MIGHT just be serviceable to get me through this job since most of my laminations are face laminations.

Hopefully I hear from Grizz today after they made me take pictures to show how bad it was….

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

4223 posts in 3132 days


#6 posted 07-14-2021 03:51 PM

Okay dokey

-- Aj

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

6830 posts in 3643 days


#7 posted 07-14-2021 04:16 PM



Hey Aj, I set the outfeed with a dial indicator, since I find it easier to put numbers to things vs using my eyes, which are aging at a rate faster than the rest of me.

I finished squaring up the two boards again after adjusting the outfeed height one more to dead level and didn t find much improvement. Edge jointing left me with a gap of about 0.015” leaving me with a nice, though unintended sprung joint. I think it MIGHT just be serviceable to get me through this job since most of my laminations are face laminations.

Hopefully I hear from Grizz today after they made me take pictures to show how bad it was….

- mkon


Listen to Aj. It is the best if you ask me. The first video show the operation.

https://youtu.be/PNOt1SvjoLs?t=50

This is a very helpful website for jointer problems.

https://www.newwoodworker.com/jntrprobfxs.html

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View mkon's profile

mkon

13 posts in 191 days


#8 posted 07-14-2021 04:23 PM

Hey Aj, I set the outfeed with a dial indicator, since I find it easier to put numbers to things vs using my eyes, which are aging at a rate faster than the rest of me.

I finished squaring up the two boards again after adjusting the outfeed height one more to dead level and didn t find much improvement. Edge jointing left me with a gap of about 0.015” leaving me with a nice, though unintended sprung joint. I think it MIGHT just be serviceable to get me through this job since most of my laminations are face laminations.

Hopefully I hear from Grizz today after they made me take pictures to show how bad it was….

- mkon

Listen to Aj. It is the best if you ask me. The first video show the operation.

https://youtu.be/PNOt1SvjoLs?t=50

This is a very helpful website for jointer problems.

https://www.newwoodworker.com/jntrprobfxs.html

- AlaskaGuy

AlaskaGuy

Aj’s recommendation is definitely a good one, the issue that I have is actually that the infeed table is crowned (convex) and I’m not able to get the infeed coplaner to the outfeed. The best I’ve been able to tweak the entire setup still puts a 0.004” – 0.010” concave into every jointed face. This is due to the Infeed being shortened by over 24 inches and having to run long stock.

Aj’s recommended method is how I get close to outfeed table height and then dial in the rest of the height with a dial indicator, which lets me mess with the settings to a degree that is probably overkill. For example:

With the knives at 0.002” above the outfeed, my boards were concaved 0.015” over a 50” straight edge
With the knives at 0.001” above the outfeed, my boards were concaved 0.009” over a 50” straight edge
With the knives at 0.000” above the outfeed, my boards are in the ball park of 0.004” over a 50” straight edge

I’m just trying to figure out if I’m over thinking the tolerance, to get me through a job while I have Grizzly Sort this out. I don’t think I’m going to be able to tune it much better without getting the infeed co-planer which is really not possible with a big ol’ hump in the middle of the table.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

6830 posts in 3643 days


#9 posted 07-14-2021 09:51 PM


Hey Aj, I set the outfeed with a dial indicator, since I find it easier to put numbers to things vs using my eyes, which are aging at a rate faster than the rest of me.

I finished squaring up the two boards again after adjusting the outfeed height one more to dead level and didn t find much improvement. Edge jointing left me with a gap of about 0.015” leaving me with a nice, though unintended sprung joint. I think it MIGHT just be serviceable to get me through this job since most of my laminations are face laminations.

Hopefully I hear from Grizz today after they made me take pictures to show how bad it was….

- mkon

Listen to Aj. It is the best if you ask me. The first video show the operation.

https://youtu.be/PNOt1SvjoLs?t=50

This is a very helpful website for jointer problems.

https://www.newwoodworker.com/jntrprobfxs.html

- AlaskaGuy

AlaskaGuy

Aj s recommendation is definitely a good one, the issue that I have is actually that the infeed table is crowned (convex) and I m not able to get the infeed coplaner to the outfeed. The best I ve been able to tweak the entire setup still puts a 0.004” – 0.010” concave into every jointed face. This is due to the Infeed being shortened by over 24 inches and having to run long stock.

Aj s recommended method is how I get close to outfeed table height and then dial in the rest of the height with a dial indicator, which lets me mess with the settings to a degree that is probably overkill. For example:

With the knives at 0.002” above the outfeed, my boards were concaved 0.015” over a 50” straight edge
With the knives at 0.001” above the outfeed, my boards were concaved 0.009” over a 50” straight edge
With the knives at 0.000” above the outfeed, my boards are in the ball park of 0.004” over a 50” straight edge

I m just trying to figure out if I m over thinking the tolerance, to get me through a job while I have Grizzly Sort this out. I don t think I m going to be able to tune it much better without getting the infeed co-planer which is really not possible with a big ol hump in the middle of the table.

- mkon


In case you didn’t read this on my link.

When a jointer produces a concave shape in the surface being jointed make sure that you are not pushing down too hard and flattening the wood out during the cut. When the pressure is released the wood comes back up. Repeat this error and the concave shape can get worse.

If you are sure technique is not an issue look for the outboard end outfeed table to be tilted down slightly. This is a relatively rare occurrence but we do see this problem more often AFTER someone has tried to adjust out a problem that was more likely caused by an error in technique. With an outfeed table that really is tilted away from the infeed table, the wood wants to arc downward during the cut, dragging the trailing portion of the board across the cutters as it tips forward. The result will be a concave shape.

Though less likely, the same thing can occur with a long board that already has a concave shape in the surface being jointed. If the board is too long, the ends are never on the tables at the same time and the concave shape can remain or even be made worse. If possible, cut the board to a length closer to what is actually needed for the project. You can also reverse shorter boards to help take equal amounts from both ends until it is flatter on the jointer beds. Then take all remaining cuts with the grain.
Putting shims under the low spot at the sliding rails is the only way to fix most jointers. Using trimmed leaves from a simple feeler gauge for shim stock can save the day, and a few bucks.
Click image to enlarge

Most better quality jointers have the surface of the tables ground true AFTER they are assembled at the factory. Unless something bad happened to the jointer, it is rare to find the tables out of alignment. When the tables are level to each other, they are said to be coplanar. Lay a long (quality) straight edge across the tables and its bottom edge should be flat on both tables over its full length.

Fixing a non coplanar condition usually means adding shims below the low end of the offending table. Do not confuse the gib screws on most jointers that control the fit of the table to the sliding ways on the center housing. I continually see people recommending adjusting the gib screws to fix an out of line table. In nearly all cases, shims must be placed between the table and the center housing at the correct spot along the rails to fix the condition. On most parallelogram jointers there are adjustments at all four corners that can be used to correct a coplanar error. Check your instruction manual or contact the manufacturer for details on making this adjustment on your specific jointer.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View mkon's profile

mkon

13 posts in 191 days


#10 posted 07-14-2021 09:57 PM

AlaskaGuy

Appreciate the response and info, I’ll take it under advisement

To be a bit more pointed in my question:

How flat is flat enough coming off the jointer? Specifically for say a Mortise and Tenon where the shoulder needs to be square to the mortised piece. Is my 0.004” tolerance over thinking the issue or should I be shooting for something better.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

6830 posts in 3643 days


#11 posted 07-14-2021 10:53 PM

- mkon

Set you jointer up the best you can. Flatten some stock and make this mortise and tenon you keep talking about. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Richard Lee's profile

Richard Lee

455 posts in 2109 days


#12 posted 07-14-2021 10:55 PM

With the knives at 0.002” above the outfeed, my boards were concaved 0.015” over a 50” straight edge
With the knives at 0.001” above the outfeed, my boards were concaved 0.009” over a 50” straight edge
With the knives at 0.000” above the outfeed, my boards are in the ball park of 0.004” over a 50” straight edge

I m just trying to figure out if I m over thinking the tolerance, to get me through a job while I have Grizzly Sort this out. I don t think I m going to be able to tune it much better without getting the infeed co-planer which is really not possible with a big ol hump in the middle of the table.

If you are getting .004 flatness on 50” I would say thats as good as it gets with wood.
I always say if you can easily push the joints by hand to get them tight its going to be fine with clamps.
Remember that .004 is about the average hair.

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

4223 posts in 3132 days


#13 posted 07-14-2021 11:05 PM

I’m not really seeing the connection between what a jointer does and a mortise and tenon joint.
Unless your saying your particular machine is not able to take the twist, cup ,bow or crook out of a board and it’s affecting your jointery work.
It also might help us give you insight if we knew about the current head in the machine.
Is it a insert head with the carbide cutters or straight knives. If it’s knives then any tests should be done with fresh sharp edges using clean wood.
Dull knives cut as good as new carbide. Very slow
Good Luck

-- Aj

View BlueRidgeDog's profile

BlueRidgeDog

905 posts in 1113 days


#14 posted 07-15-2021 12:25 AM



How flat is flat enough coming off the jointer? Specifically for say a Mortise and Tenon where the shoulder needs to be square to the mortised piece. Is my 0.004” tolerance over thinking the issue or should I be shooting for something better.

- mkon

Well, you bought a Grizzly jointer. I did to. I wanted value vs an engineering grade surface. It is used for wood. Some people build their own out of wood. Personally I would use .004. I have not checked mine in that much detail absent getting the tables aligned with a less than precision straight edge (I do pay attention to the outfeed side and the plane of the cutter head). You will introduce more error with technique than your .004.

“If” I was that worried about it, rather than keep playing roulette with them, I would take the one you have to a machine shop to be flattened.

Just my .02!

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