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Veritas Replacement Cap Iron for Stanley Hand Planes?

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Forum topic by CaptainKlutz posted 03-25-2021 11:21 PM 2274 views 0 times favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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CaptainKlutz

5156 posts in 2829 days


03-25-2021 11:21 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question plane blade refurbishing

Please share your Veritas Replacement Cap Iron for Stanley Planes experience.

Been having an issue with fitment on Veritas 1-3/4 cap iron (PN 05P6332).

Looking for experiences of others that may bought this same cap iron?

Do you have one?

——————My story———

Ordered the PN 05P3196 set with PM11 blade and new cap iron. Own many other PM11 blade/cap replacement sets, and love the durability of the PM11 blade. But this is my first ‘narrow’ 1-3/4” wide blade Veritas replacement set.
Am well aware of general inconsistencies and challenges fine tuning Stanley planes. Own several IBC replacements. I find the thicker IBC A2 blade generally requires opening the plane mouth, takes slightly longer to sharpen, and does not last as long as PM11.

Made this post to tap into the LJ community to see if there is something I am missing?

Problem is hard to explain in words, and so need some pictures. This is part:

The problem:
Unable to extend the blade out of plane mouth, unless the cap iron exposes 1/8”+ of blade,
This image shows regular Stanley blade/chip breaker next to Veritas replacement with set back needed for use.

The problem with chip breaker this far back is harder to cut thin ‘see thru’ shavings as expected from a smoothing plane.

‘SEE’ two differences between Veritas and OEM referenced from bottom edges. The slot for blade height adjuster is 1/8 higher on OEM chip breaker. The mounting screw to hold the chip breaker and blade together on the Veritas is almost 1/4” lower than OEM.

The result of these differences is the blade assembly hits the cap iron hold down screw before the blade can extend out of mouth (unless exposing 1/8” of blade).

Tricky part of the interference problem is head of mounting screw under the blade makes contact before the chip breaker! Here is close up of the above image, note the screw head inside the red circle:

For comparison, using the OEM blade assembly, the cap iron has slightly less than 1/16” clearance between screw and cap iron, and blade will easily extend out for thin or thick shaving, with less than 1/16” between end of chip breaker and blade.

Have tested this cap iron in 4 different 1-3/4 blade planes with similar results.

Have a type 20 #5-1/4, type 19 #3, type 18 #3, and type 6 #603.

Adjusting the frog position does not help. Even with frog flush to back of mouth, blade will not extend out mouth; unless the chip breaker is abnormally far from the edge of of blade.

The oldest plane had ‘best’ fit, a type 6 #603 (1912-1921) has cap iron screw slighter lower than newer models. But the pocket for blade to chip breaker screw is not as close to screw, and the Veritas screw head hits pocket limit instead of screw. This lower cap iron screw position allows the Veritas cap to work with slight less (1/16-3/32) of blade exposed.
Think I can enlarge the lower side of pocket with Dremel, be able to make the Veritas chip breaker fit properly. Not sure I want to make that modification without reading comments from the community hand plane experts? lol

——
NOTE: This is NOT a complaint thread!!!
Have already called Lee Valley CS to discuss the issue. CS claimed they do not have an abnormal return rate on this product, or the lot I received. Was told to process a ‘no questions asked’ return/refund online, and they would even pay for return shipping.
Was hoping that might be able to confirm some critical dimensions on my cap iron against Veritas drawing, but Lee Valley was not able provide any data. The CS consulted tech support, and response is that not every Stanley plane can be adjusted to use these replacement parts. If I was willing to provided my observations on the fit issue with return; they would hand it off to Veritas staff for review. I bought this set just over a year ago, forget it was stashed in the work bench, and didn’t expect the answer to be ‘return for full refund’.
Have nothing but accolades for Lee Valley customer service. :)

Will be sharing this thread with Veritas CS via email to see if I can obtain some part dimensions to rule out probability of getting a bad part. Will post data if I learn more.

——
Have more pictures, and dimensions from my analysis of the issue.
If you have questions, or need more information, post them or PM me.

Look forward to reading about other users experience with Veritas Cap Iron(s) and fitment issues.
Thanks for reading all way to end. :-)
Have a great day!

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967


14 replies so far

View Mosquito's profile

Mosquito

11466 posts in 3627 days


#1 posted 03-25-2021 11:56 PM

I had the same issue with an IBC blade in a Keen Kutter #3, except it was more like 1/2” off (though was not a chip beaker that was intended for vintage planes, in their defense). I do not own any of the Veritas irons, so can’t comment on that particular iron.

I would say gather what info you can from LV, and see if you can validate whether or not your chip breaker is within spec, and if it is then I wouldn’t hesitate to make it fit however you need to.

Would the OEM chip breaker work with the iron? I know with Stanley chip breaker screws it may not be a possibility, as they had such thin irons comparatively. Not sure if the Veritas chip breaker screw would fit the OEM chip breaker either, but might be something worth a try (with my KK3 I was able to use the OEM chipbreaker and screw with the IBC iron)

-- Mos - Twin Cities, MN - http://www.youtube.com/MosquitoMods - http://www.TheModsquito.com

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

20669 posts in 2473 days


#2 posted 03-26-2021 11:01 AM

So it sounds like grinding the slot for the lever cap screw back and then turning down the head on the chipbreaker screw might get you where you need to be? Of course you can’t turn the screw head down a lot or it will slip through the slot.

I think Mos has the best solution if it will work – use the vintage chipbreaker with the Veritas iron.

I bought a Veitas LAJ last year with the PM-V11 iron and have been really impressed with it thus far. I have considered replacing some of the irons in my vintage bench planes. Thanks for taking the time to detail this so I know what to expect!

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

8805 posts in 2722 days


#3 posted 03-26-2021 04:09 PM

It could be just a quirk of the photographer but if you look at the image on the LV website, they show it with a similar gap between the edge and the cap iron:

Note that I cannot find the part number you listed, though I did not spend a lot of time looking (see link). Perhaps they changed the part number and specs since you purchased it?

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View Ocelot's profile

Ocelot

3722 posts in 3973 days


#4 posted 03-26-2021 04:20 PM

On another thread somebody had a similar problem with 2 stanley chipbreakers.

The conclusion was that the chipbreaker on the Household Jack was different than on the normal 5 1/4 or 3 and not interchangable. It is possible that Lee Valley based their design off a Household Jack rather than a normal 5 1/4, not realizing there is a difference. The Household Jack has a smaller frog, I think and everything moves down a smidge.

I have one of each at home.

I’ll try to remember to measure mine.

-Paul

-- I intended to be a woodworker, but turned into a tool and lumber collector.

View SMP's profile

SMP

5068 posts in 1240 days


#5 posted 03-26-2021 06:02 PM

Funny. I have a frankenplane I made from an incomplete 5 1/4 i got at an antique shop, and an incomplete 3 “for parts” i got from a guy on CL. When trying to cobble together one usable plane I ran into similar issues, but I kind of expected for $5. Let me try to find the pieces and if I do will post some pics.

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

5156 posts in 2829 days


#6 posted 03-26-2021 07:20 PM

I had the same issue with an IBC blade in a Keen Kutter #3 …. – Mosquito
Thanks. Interesting to know not all #3 planes with 1-3/4 blades are same. Fitting irons not designed as replacements can be bad idea. I tried to fit one of the thicker Woodriver/IBC blades into a Stanley #5 for scrub plane. Had all kinds if issues. Mouth was wide enough to eat sandwich by time I was done.

Note that I cannot find the part number you listed – Lazyman
Sorry it was hard to find. Appears the new LV site is not good at searching for LV part numbers for blades/breakers?
They aggregate all size parts to one page with pull down menus.
Added links to the web pages in original post.


On another thread somebody had a similar problem with 2 stanley chipbreakers.

The conclusion was that the chip breaker on the Household Jack was different than on the normal 5 1/4 or 3 and not interchangeable. It is possible that Lee Valley based their design off a Household Jack rather than a normal 5 1/4, not realizing there is a difference. The Household Jack has a smaller frog, I think and everything moves down a smidge.

I ll try to remember to measure mine.

-Paul

- Ocelot

Thanks for your reply. Not aware of the possible differences. My type 20 #5-1/4 has same measurements as my #3 planes. Might be related mfg date?
Your post reinforces the statement I thought strange from LV CS; that this chip breaker may not fit all Stanley planes? Would like to read that thread if you can link it?

IMHO – Rather than Vertias using Jr Jack for version to copy, suggest they might have tried to make ONE 1-3/4 chip breaker that works for both versions; which leads me to think it does not fit either one very well? :-(0)

Looking forward to some measurements. TiA for sharing data!

Cheers!

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

View SMP's profile

SMP

5068 posts in 1240 days


#7 posted 03-26-2021 07:21 PM

I was hoping the pic clarified what I mean, but the pic doesn’t show the difference as much as in person. But hopefully you can tell that the big hole and the adjuster slot are quite different between the 1892 set on the left and the SW set on right.

View Don W's profile

Don W

20280 posts in 3902 days


#8 posted 03-27-2021 11:29 AM

If you go through enough hand planes you’ll find differences in spec’s. I never figured out if it was vintage or manufacturing. It’s hard to tell because these things get moved around over 100 years.

The bolt heads are also a little different. I’ve made chip breakers work by finding a bolt with a smaller head.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

5156 posts in 2829 days


#9 posted 03-27-2021 08:29 PM

Update:

Got an reply email from Veritas Customer Service on a Saturday morning, after sending my information request Thursday night. Like most companies, the CS are working from home. Can not complain about response time. :-(0)

Received the critical dimensions of the cap iron that impact the fit issues. The part I received is within normal mfg tolerances. Have a couple of dimensions off nominal by ~0.010”, but still in specification. When I add up the tolerances, find that my cap iron is missing 0.020” of adjustment length FROM NOMINAL LOCATION.
Is this enough to create the problem? You tell me…

After reading the above comments on differences between #5-1/4 Jr Jack and #3; checked the frogs on my planes. The #5-1/4 has the adjuster pivot pin ~1/8” further away from bottom of frog, compared to #3 planes. The screw center point on the cap iron screw are nearly same, reference from bottom of frog. There is slight difference in screw shaft diameter, with newest planes have larger OD. The oldest #603 has cap iron screw slightly closer to bottom of frog, and has smaller screw ID. This same plane requires least amount of cap iron ‘pull back’ to make the replacement blade work. Is hard to measure, but appears I need little less than 1/16” to make it fit.

At this point, my engineering brain wants to dive into frog dimensions for cap iron hold down screw and adjuster location. Might be able to make this replacement cap iron work with different frog?
Does anyone know if the frog dimensional data already exists some where?

Thanks again for your comments and the assistance.

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

20669 posts in 2473 days


#10 posted 03-27-2021 09:07 PM

Not that I’ve ever seen Captain. Would be handy information to have compiled and stored somewhere on the interwebs though. Like Don said though, I imagine there is so much variation, even among the same type and model, that you’d forever be finding outliers.

I’d be interested in the specs that LV sent you if you think they wouldn’t mind you sharing. I’m curious whether the Veritas pieces are plug and play with my Millers Falls plane.

-- I collect hobbies. There is no sense in limiting yourself (Don W) - - - - - - - - Kenny in SW VA

View Don W's profile

Don W

20280 posts in 3902 days


#11 posted 03-27-2021 09:46 PM

You.have several variances to take into consideration. The chip breaker, the frog, the chip breaker screw, the yoke, and the sole thickness. Everything just needs to lean the wrong way a little and it doesn’t work anymore.

-- http://timetestedtools.net - Collecting is an investment in the past, and the future.

View Dave_London's profile

Dave_London

6 posts in 2650 days


#12 posted 11-28-2021 08:18 PM

I’m glad I found this post as I’ve been trying to work out the difference in the geometry of a Veritas replacement (A2). Interesting …. I bought two replacements, both for Stanley-Bailey (made in Canada). The replacement in the #4 Smoother works flawlessly but the frog of #5 Jack can’t adjust backwards far enough to clear the OEM chipbreaker. Thanks for the ‘heads-up’.

-- Cheers, Dave

View Derek Cohen's profile

Derek Cohen

521 posts in 5303 days


#13 posted 01-06-2022 11:49 AM

The problem is not with the Veritas chipbreaker, which are all the same, but that some Stanley chipbreakers vary from their own norms. I have used Veritas chipbreakers successfully on some Stanley planes, and then I come across a rogue Stanley.

Further to this, chipbreakers for LN planes are all the same, but differ from all other makes. The slot is 1/4” higher.

Regards from Perth

Derek

-- Buildiing furniture, and reviewing and building tools at http://www.inthewoodshop.com

View Sylvain's profile

Sylvain

1516 posts in 3834 days


#14 posted 01-07-2022 10:53 AM

The nice thing with the curved chip-breaker Stanley-style is that one can modify it by changing the curvature with some hammer whack.

I had to do it on a cheapo #4 where I could not fully retract the iron.
That way I could shorten the distance chip breaker edge yoke-slot.

Obviously, your problem is the reverse of the one I had and, the Veritas chip breaker can not be elongated.

-- Sylvain, Brussels, Belgium, Europe - The more I learn, the more there is to learn (and that is nice)

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