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GF Enduro Pigmented Poly....or....

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Forum topic by dakremer posted 03-11-2021 03:22 AM 711 views 0 times favorited 25 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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dakremer

2771 posts in 4334 days


03-11-2021 03:22 AM

I’m going to be building some built-ins for a friend. Going to make the doors out of Double-Refined MDF. I’ve never used GF Enduro (White) Poly before. My friend wants a really strong finish. I want an easy finish to spray (not super experienced). I have sprayed Acrylic paints before, but have never sprayed lacquer or poly….

Is the Enduro Poly an actual polyurethane? Is is a lot more durable than the SW paint? More durable than a Pre-cat Lacquer? Should I use something different? Just trying to gather opinions and information! Thanks

-- Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!!!!


25 replies so far

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

7229 posts in 3735 days


#1 posted 03-11-2021 11:32 AM

Waterborne finishes are mostly an acrylic resin formula. Somewhere the companies caught on to the magic word “poly” and then added a dollop of it to the mix. That then allows them to put the magic word on the label. Since then is no firm definition of what a “polyurethane” finish is, the answer to your question is either yes, no, or maybe. That said (I’ve not used the Enduro pigmented) the Enduro Poly gets nothing but accolades from it’s fans, and I wouldn’t hesitate to use it if that was what I needed. But my own opinion is that the oil based finishes are still a more durable way to go and if at all possible I use them.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

4896 posts in 2736 days


#2 posted 03-11-2021 11:57 AM

I have sprayed Acrylic paints before, but have never sprayed lacquer or poly
Sprayed acrylic how, or with what kind of equipment?

WB paints have heavier body (higher viscosity) than most solvent based finishes. Pigmented WB can be highest viscosity, and behaves similar to latex paint for spraying. The need better atomization, and often larger spray gun tip sizes.

Solvent based clear finishes are easier to spray than WB, with lower viscosity, and use smaller tip sizes. Pre-cat lacquer sprays almost like straight water. Pigmented solvent based finishes fall somewhere in middle between clear solvent, and clear WB.

IME – Single part WB polyurethane (like GF Enduro) are slow to reach ultimate hardness, requiring 30 days for full cure; despite drying in a day or less. WB poly will be harder then SW acrylic (latex) paint. But a single part WB will never reach same hardness as 2 part/2K finish.

If you want maximum durability, then suggest a solvent based 2k conversion varnish from SW, Chemcraft, or ML Campbell, etc. 2K conversion varnish are gold standard for kitchen/bath durability. More durable than pre-cat lacquer too.

The most durable WB coating I have used is Renner 851 2K poly. Leaps and bounds above any GF WB product for durability. It can be tinted to color match most any color. Stuff is so hard/durable, it laughs at garnet sandpaper; and only ceramic, or zirconium sandpaper last more than 1 door panel on ROS. Sprays as well as any other WB finish, though I do find dry time and pot life shorter than I like on a dry 100° Arizona day.

Challenge with finish recommendations is not everyone has access to all the major brands. So brand choice is often dependent on local suppliers. If you call/visit your local wood coating distributors, they can educate with more options, much quicker than reading forums. :-)

Best Luck.

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

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dakremer

2771 posts in 4334 days


#3 posted 03-11-2021 08:40 PM

Hey Captain!

I sprayed SW ProEnamel on my built-ins using a Graco Handheld Airless (Graco Ultra). I added Floetrol to let it flatten out a little more. I actually got a really amazing finish with hardly any orange peeling and virtually zero drips. That being said, DAMN was the learning curve steep, and it took a lot of practice and monkeying around to get a great finish. For obvious reasons – that Graco Ultra airless isn’t really meant for fine finishes, and spraying Latex/Acrylic is really tough!

That is my only spraying experience. I’ve never sprayed anything else in my life (other than spray paints and lacquer/poly in a can)

For these built-ins I’m building for my friend, I want something easier to spray that will give me a better/smoother WHITE finish. They want it durable (because they have two little boys that are ready to destroy them). I will be purchasing the Fuji 5-stage Turbine for this project, so my setup will be more congruent for fine finishing. I don’t know a whole lot about spray finishes. I will be finishing them out in the garage. So I’d like a decently fast drying time so I can avoid stuff getting into the finish. I want something durable, however the budget doesn’t allow for the top top end stuff. I’m open to solvent based or water based.

-- Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!!!!

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CWWoodworking

2207 posts in 1421 days


#4 posted 03-11-2021 09:59 PM

Precat is about as easy as it gets. Is it more durable than enduro? Probably for a built in.

A step up would be conversion varnish. This is a two part finish. Basically you mix in a hardener and you have a 8-12 hr pot life. It’s not as scary as it sounds.

Downside to precat and CV is mil limit and harder to touch up.

If you have a Sherwin Williams their precat white is pretty good. Chemcraft is slightly better. That is what I use.

The finishes above are flammable. Protect yourself and your environment.

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CaptainKlutz

4896 posts in 2736 days


#5 posted 03-12-2021 03:21 PM

dakremer Your adventure with SW WB enamel is same kind of challenges one faces with most WB paints. If you had sprayed solvent coatings before, still would have felt like a beginner starting out with WB. It is PITA, compared to solvent coatings.

Using a Turbine spray unit will reduce the challenges heavy body WB finishes create. They are recommended spray type by many WB coating mfg. Some folks find turbine HVLP more difficult to use for solvent pre-cat lacquer as you need the smallest tip sizes, not included with base unit. But they work fine, with right set up. Of course that is heart of spraying finishes, there is always a trade off; and rarely is everything perfect. When you find perfect setup, mother nature will make it difficult. :)

Budget is always a challenge with finishing materials. Newer chemistry is always more expensive, with latest low VOC green coatings demanding highest prices. Automotive coatings are best example. Top of line WB automotive clear coats can run $500+ a gallon, while everyday solvent clear is $100-250. Only mention automotive coatings as they considered some of most durable, referring to your need for durability. Also seems like the more durable a coating, the more expensive. Pre-cat is cheap at < $35 for gallon can, while CV is ~$50. WB wood coatings start at $50/gal for low solids and Renner 851 I like runs ~$80/gal + catalyst.

Profile mentions Iowa. There are significant concentration of small coatings mfg in Iowa; including Diamond Vogel; which owns Old Masters. Have Klinger Paint and Teknikote which offer private label wood coatings. Also have Woodsmith store near Des Moines; which sells wood finishing supplies. Is very hard for an outsider to offer local brand suggestions, beyond national names already mentioned above?

Sprayed finishes are often used on larger projects, as you use more material. So spraying opens up the scope of possible finish types dramatically. As posted previously: Find you local commercial/industrial wood coatings distributors and ask them for recommendations. Many are very happy to work with serious wood working hobbyist. If/when you find that local help; your questions will be answered quickly. They want you to succeed, so they can sell you more material. :)

Best Luck.

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

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Sark

426 posts in 1602 days


#6 posted 03-12-2021 04:07 PM

I’ve sprayed a lot of Enduro poly. As noted above, its mostly acrylic based (for hardness) with some poly thrown in to add some toughness ie flexibility. Target makes a water-based conversion varnish (whatever that is) supposedly tougher than the acrylic polys. I think General Finishes has a similar type of coating, so look for that if toughness is your ultimate goal, and you’re working with water-based finishes. There are harder/tougher finishes in the oils based world as noted above.

My technique to get really nice finishes that customers love, is to rub them out. Can’t do that with some of the ultra-hard finishes (like 2K) but certainly with Enduro. Hard to beat the look of a hand rubbed finish that has a light coat of wax. Since you’re doing this for friends, I would put the ascetics over ultimate hardness. They will love the way it looks. White is easy to work with. And Enduro is plenty hard for most purposes.

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MikeJ70

108 posts in 1189 days


#7 posted 03-12-2021 04:50 PM

I’ve used Target Coatings water based Lacquer on several projects and have had some really good results from it. I also used it last year on some built-ins for our office and had some issues with curing. Not sure if it was weather related or defective product. I sent an email to them stating the issue, but never received a response back. It’s possible my email went into their junk folder so they missed it (had it happen on several other occasions to other recipients), previous to that they were always good about responding and Jeff the owner was responding to questions I had on a Sunday. I should have followed up with a phone call, but was super busy at work at the time so I never did, so that’s on me.

Anyways, the times that I did get good results, the stuff dries fast and sands easily with no burn through like you get with some of the other finishes. Cleans up with water as long as you do it right away, otherwise you can hit it with some lacquer thinner if needed.

They do have an additive you can use to make it more durable, but I have never used it so I can’t say anything about it.

-- MikeJ

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dakremer

2771 posts in 4334 days


#8 posted 03-12-2021 10:04 PM



Precat is about as easy as it gets. Is it more durable than enduro? Probably for a built in.

Could you elborate on this? Why more durable for built-ins?

-- Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!!!!

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dakremer

2771 posts in 4334 days


#9 posted 03-12-2021 10:08 PM


...My technique to get really nice finishes that customers love, is to rub them out. Can’t do that with some of the ultra-hard finishes (like 2K) but certainly with Enduro. Hard to beat the look of a hand rubbed finish that has a light coat of wax. Since you’re doing this for friends, I would put the ascetics over ultimate hardness. They will love the way it looks. White is easy to work with. And Enduro is plenty hard for most purposes.

- Sark

They were quoted $10,000 for these built-ins. They asked for a quote from me (knowing I dont do this professionally). I told them I could do it for $7,000k. So they are still paying me a good chunk of change for these built-ins. I’m not worried about building them to a professional standard, but I’m getting a little concerned with finishing them. Like I said earlier, my built-ins turned out really awesome, but I just want something more durable than Sherwin Williams ProEnamel paint, and something easier to spray. You have me curious with this hand rubbed finish with wax. What products could I do that with? Pre-cat laqcuer? Any video links? Thanks!

-- Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!!!!

View CWWoodworking's profile

CWWoodworking

2207 posts in 1421 days


#10 posted 03-12-2021 10:41 PM


Precat is about as easy as it gets. Is it more durable than enduro? Probably for a built in.

Could you elborate on this? Why more durable for built-ins?

- dakremer

My guess is the precat is harder and more resistant to scuffs.

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dakremer

2771 posts in 4334 days


#11 posted 03-12-2021 11:01 PM


My guess is the precat is harder and more resistant to scuffs.

- CWWoodworking

Would it be safe to assume that the precat is more durable than the Sherwin Williams ProEnamel? I was just thinking, that I’m going to be building these and finishing them. Their contractor will install them, and they’ll have to install the trim afterwards, which I’m assuming will be paint. If I could stick with one company (like Sherwin Williams) it would be easier to match the color of cabeints/trim.

-- Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!!!!

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

4896 posts in 2736 days


#12 posted 03-13-2021 02:55 AM



Would it be safe to assume that the precat is more durable than the Sherwin Williams ProEnamel? I was just thinking, that I m going to be building these and finishing them. Their contractor will install them, and they ll have to install the trim afterwards, which I m assuming will be paint. If I could stick with one company (like Sherwin Williams) it would be easier to match the color of cabeints/trim.
- dakremer
Durability is tough measure? I use a kid proof scale.

IME – Pre-cat lacquer is not a kid proof coating. Tough? Yes, sort of. Tough enough for rarely used built-in wall cabinet, sure. But not tough enough for large family kitchen table. Don’t get me wrong, pre-cat is industry standard for furniture, but then so are table top pads or glass sheets for protection? :)
Only catalyzed Varnish or Polyurethane contain ‘durable’ resins and land on top of my durability measure. So only a Conversion Varnish (CV) or Renner 851 2K WB poly is kid resistant ‘kitchen table top’ tough on my scale. You did ask for ‘MOST DURABLE’ originally?

Have not used SW ProEnamel, but never met a single part WB enamel I liked, as they are acrylic modified. All acrylic resin finishes are too soft for kid proof furniture on my ‘durability’ scale. Most all the WB pre-cat lacquers are slightly softer than the solvent versions, as they use acrylic resins that enable water as solvent. I find the GF Enduro to be softer and less durable than solvent pre-cat, and nearly same as commercial grade WB lacquer like SW Kem Aqua or Target WB Lacquer, but only if using the optional Enduro catalyst.
SO, IMHO a solvent pre-cat is likely to be harder and more scratch resistant the WB enamel, but you should ask SW folks about SW ProEnamel .vs. Sherwood pre-cat or Kem Aqua plus.

If you want to keep this simple;
Find you nearest Sherwin Williams commercial/industrial wood coatings distributor. They have experts. If willing to use solvent based coating, thinking they will suggest; Sherwood pigmented pre-at lacquer with compatible vinyl primer if need grain fill (not required as precat is self priming), or F3 KemVar Surfacer (primer) & F3 KemVar Plus Conversion Varnish pigmented top coat. If must have WB, guessing they will suggest use of Kem Aqua Plus surfacer, and Kem Aqua Plus white (acrylic lacquer type). Then they will offer to tint ProEnamel in matching color for the painters to use for trim. If someone gets a little ProEnamel on your cabinets, no one will notice as long as sheen matches. The SW professionals will also answer all your questions. :)

If you have a ML Campbell distributor nearby: They will offer EnvroMax or MagnaMax pre-cat or Stealth CV solvent products. For WB they offer Agualente PLUS pigmented WB pre-cat lacquer. These will be similar to SW products. Your ML Campbell distributor will have a WB latex or enamel they can tint to match for the trim work too.

There are several other OEM coating companies that can offer similar products.
See the trend: Get off the forums and find a local industrial wood coatings distributor. :)

FWIW – ML Campbell products have a lower retail list price than SW in my neighborhood, but no one pays retail. At discount ‘jobber’ level, SW is still little higher; but gap closes considerably. If you were buying 100gal you might care about difference, but for couple gallon commission project; don’t get hung on price – unless SW attempts to whack your wallet with hideous $125+ retail list prices.
Folks like pre-cat as it tends to be cheapest finish, < $45/gal. More durable coatings are more expensive.
My son works part time for SW commercial store, so have special insight on SW markups. My son dislikes that I use Renner and other brands, but he recognizes SW is little behind in WB furniture coatings, even with SlayerLack product line purchase a couple years ago.

Sorry for another long post.
Information on spray coatings is voluminous, and hard to shorten.

As always, YMMV and Best Luck!

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

View CWWoodworking's profile

CWWoodworking

2207 posts in 1421 days


#13 posted 03-13-2021 03:27 AM

If your willing to use solvent based finishes, there is no reason to consider WB for this project. Solvents are cheaper, MUCH easier to work with, typically less coats, and easier to achieve durability.

Precats are good. CV is a nice step up durability wise. For a built in, I dont think its necessary.

If you can find a Chemcraft dealer in your area, try there variset. IMO, its better than Sherwin williams. I think it has better hang, cover, and lays down a little better. Not that SW is bad. If thats what you have readily available, its still a good choice.

Good luck.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

3797 posts in 4186 days


#14 posted 03-13-2021 06:33 AM

On the turbine thing, one should note those on the market have different stages (a cute name for turbines). I believe five is the magic number now. I have four stage I’ve laid down a lot of oil based product and latex with. It does a great job. So does my Accuspray beast, but it’s far more complex to operate because it’s really just a conversion unit.

I had a Graco three stage I picked up at a pawn shop for seventy bucks and it was a worth while unit, but not the machine I’d want to complete quality jobs with. If I had to keep only one of the two I mentioned above, it’d be the four stage. It’s a spoiler. I can use it for cabinetry or for finishing up deck railing without wasting a lot of paint [or spending days longer with a brush and roller].

View dakremer's profile

dakremer

2771 posts in 4334 days


#15 posted 03-13-2021 01:04 PM



On the turbine thing, one should note those on the market have different stages (a cute name for turbines). I believe five is the magic number now. I have four stage I ve laid down a lot of oil based product and latex with. It does a great job. So does my Accuspray beast, but it s far more complex to operate because it s really just a conversion unit.

I had a Graco three stage I picked up at a pawn shop for seventy bucks and it was a worth while unit, but not the machine I d want to complete quality jobs with. If I had to keep only one of the two I mentioned above, it d be the four stage. It s a spoiler. I can use it for cabinetry or for finishing up deck railing without wasting a lot of paint [or spending days longer with a brush and roller].

- Kelly

I’m buying a Fuji 5 stage for this project!! Super excited!

-- Hey you dang woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!!!!

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