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Thoughts on dust collection

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Forum topic by tvrgeek posted 01-13-2021 04:45 PM 781 views 0 times favorited 32 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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tvrgeek

1388 posts in 2656 days


01-13-2021 04:45 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question

As I am pretty happy with my shop layout, I was about to invest in quality DC pipework to replace my HVAC temporary kluge. I run a Jet single stage with a canister. It’s performance I woudl call marginal and boy, if you forget to clean the canister, it will blow off the bag and fill the shop with dust!

Anyway, it is a lot of bucks, but it looks like the Harvey 700 will actually fit under my TS outfeed table! So, for the biggest duct maker, almost no ductwork. As my router table is also built in, short duct there. I roll my jointer and planer over to right next, so again, that woudl be a simple short hose. Really, only my band saw is away from it. I could use a short hose and not have any overhead dust collection.

But, darn, a lot of bucks. Any experience with this thing? Of course the U-tube videos are only happy customers, but I am happy with my Harvey BS and am fighting with myself on a Harvey 300 TS vs the PCS. Actually, their TS would pay for the DC!


32 replies so far

View Robert's profile

Robert

4435 posts in 2487 days


#1 posted 01-17-2021 11:40 AM

Curious why you’re thinking about it. From what I’ve seen the thing about the Harvey is a totally different technology & design, the only thing I don’t like about it is the horizontal footprint, which can come at a premium in a small shop. The few times I’ve seen it in use, they didn’t have ductwork just ran a bunch of flex around (?).

But, I’ve heard nothing but good things about them. My biggest issue is the expense. I know its novel technology and the thing looks like it belongs on a nuclear sub, but the end result is the same as a cyclone. I would have trouble pulling the trigger b/c for north of $3K you can buy a ClearVue cyclone and do a lot of duct work (or put a bid dent in that bandsaw you want).

FWIW, I wouldn’t want to roll a machine around do connect to DC. Bring the hose to the machine or run ductwork.

I’m not familiar with Harvey machines, but I checked them out. Have to say that 14” 3HP (Wow!) bandsaw looks pretty sweet. If the table saws work as good as they look, the prices are fantastic!

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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RClark

50 posts in 3192 days


#2 posted 01-17-2021 12:16 PM

I don’t know if I would want to be “the first kid on the block” with a new style of DC. It looks intriguing, but the cost would have me wary of becoming an early adopter.

For me, the Harvey wouldn’t obviate the need for DC ducting. I went to ducts to get rid of movable flex hose that spent more time hooked to the wrong machine than it ever did collecting dust.

The Harvey is rated at 1100 CFM max and only 700 CFM max on 4” hose according to the spec sheet on their site. What this translates to in real-world use is dependent on the same physics as any other DC setup. I think my Harbor Freight setup is probably similar—definitely not the most efficient/effective DC setup out there.

OBTW: My HF DC setup is one of the frankenstein hybrids with a cyclone separator and Wynne filter.

I’ll concede that less DC noise is a bonus, but most of the machines hooked to my DC setup require hearing protection when they’re running anyway, so it’s a “lost” benefit.

-- Ray

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

6826 posts in 3500 days


#3 posted 01-17-2021 01:43 PM


I ll concede that less DC noise is a bonus, but most of the machines hooked to my DC setup require hearing protection when they re running anyway, so it s a “lost” benefit.

- RClark

Seems to me that most folks overlook that fact.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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Tony_S

1425 posts in 4090 days


#4 posted 01-17-2021 02:27 PM

3K for a max of 1100cfm? It must do some pretty incredible things other than suck air…and your money.

-- “Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.” – Plato

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Kudzupatch

113 posts in 2215 days


#5 posted 01-17-2021 02:53 PM



....I would have trouble pulling the trigger b/c for north of $3K you can buy a ClearVue cyclone and do a lot of duct work

Exactly my thoughts. But I have keep reminding myself it is not my money. But wow!

-- Jeff Horton * Kudzu Craft skin boats* www.kudzucraft.com

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clagwell

363 posts in 799 days


#6 posted 01-17-2021 04:57 PM

It can be worthwhile to compare performance curves for the various dust collectors. This chart is kind of busy, my apologies for that. It shows performance curves for five different dust collectors in solid lines and system curves for five different loads in dashed lines. The operating point of a given dust collector and load is where the two lines cross.

The load system curves assume 10’ of hose connecting the DC to the tool port, with no other ducting. For example, the Table Saw assumes a typical cabinet saw with a 4” port and no shroud on the blade. You can see that the flow rate is a bit less than 400 CFM with the Harbor Freight, about 430 CFM with the Supercell, 475 With Harvey, 515 on V3000 and 615 on CV1800.

Added ducting will of course reduce those numbers.

-- Dave, Tippecanoe County, IN --- Is there a corollary to Beranek.s Law that applies to dust collection?

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tvrgeek

1388 posts in 2656 days


#7 posted 01-17-2021 05:24 PM

What it claims to do is a better job of filtering so as not to clog the HEPA filters. Compare it to other HEPA filters, not just other canisters. It is a single tool unit for sure.

Bought a Clear-View for my Fein vac. It will pay for itself in no time with the cost of Fein bags.

I have blown the bag off my Jet twice. Takes a week to get things clean again. If I keep it, it is going to get a pressure alarm, rebuilt on top of an Oneida 6 inch cyclone ( Clear view does not sell them independently) and an overpressure ducted to the outside. I don’t think the cyclone drops the flow very much and it has enough for a single tool.

It looks like Clearview only makes 5 HP systems. I need about a 2. Could power 3.
Baleigh looks good, 1450C 1 micron
Griz has one with external HEPA filrers ( G0440 HEP)
Laguna has 1 micron in their C range and HEPA in the P range. about $2300 for the 2 HP HEPA
Harvey is HEPA. ( .3 micron and less) but it is less flow than the others. Advantage in it fitting under my outfeed table so less ductwork.
Oneida V3000, 3 HP HEPA may be a good buy.
I thought my Jet canister was better. No, actually 2 micron. Of course adding a cyclone would reduce the total emissions, but got me thinking.

So much to think about.

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tvrgeek

1388 posts in 2656 days


#8 posted 01-17-2021 05:48 PM



It can be worthwhile to compare performance curves for the various dust collectors. This chart is kind of busy, my apologies for that. It shows performance curves for five different dust collectors in solid lines and system curves for five different loads in dashed lines. The operating point of a given dust collector and load is where the two lines cross.

The load system curves assume 10 of hose connecting the DC to the tool port, with no other ducting. For example, the Table Saw assumes a typical cabinet saw with a 4” port and no shroud on the blade. You can see that the flow rate is a bit less than 400 CFM with the Harbor Freight, about 430 CFM with the Supercell, 475 With Harvey, 515 on V3000 and 615 on CV1800.

Added ducting will of course reduce those numbers.

- clagwell

Good data. I love actual data.
For sure, a 4 inch line is not enough for a TS. From the tools I am looking at, I expect to run a 6 inch trunk and probably 5 inch drop to the TS. The 4 seems to work on my jointer and planer. BS has 2 4’s, so a 5 inch drop would be sensible. I was measuring 961 CFM on my 4 inch drop from my Jet 1 3/4 HP. That tells me with improved ductwork a 1 3/4 or 2 HP should be sufficient for one tool. I expect the cyclone does reduce it a little so I would lean to the 2 HP.

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Kudzupatch

113 posts in 2215 days


#9 posted 01-17-2021 09:24 PM


Source for this data?

-- Jeff Horton * Kudzu Craft skin boats* www.kudzucraft.com

View clagwell's profile

clagwell

363 posts in 799 days


#10 posted 01-17-2021 09:37 PM

Source for this data?

- Kudzupatch

CV1800: Bill Pentz post on Clearview forum
V3000 and Supercell: Oneida website
G700: Harvey website
HFDC: my tests and Wood Magazine article
Jointer: my tests on Jet JJP-12HH
All other system curves: http://www.freecalc.com/ductloss.htm

Thanks for asking! Good to know someone pays attention to data sources.

-- Dave, Tippecanoe County, IN --- Is there a corollary to Beranek.s Law that applies to dust collection?

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tvrgeek

1388 posts in 2656 days


#11 posted 01-17-2021 09:46 PM

OK, OK. I’m cheap. I really want a 2 HP HEPA system. But we are talking almost 3K. What can I do?

So, I have a Jet with a canister I can get the 6 inch Oneida cyclone. Flip the blower and mount it on top. Get a 30 gallon steel garbage can and some draw latches for primary collection. Feed into the jet. Replace the bag with a 5 gallon bucket ( draw latches) Put in a slack tube monometer to monitor the filter getting dirty. Hitting the cyclone first, less risk of metal debris in a floor sweep. That would be nice. But not HEPA yet!

So, I put it in a closet. Make a frame for the door and stack generic MERV-13 4 inch 30×30 filters. Not quite HEPA, but following the canister, probably 90% of what escapes the canister.

New duct work, 6 inch big radius good stuff. I figure I can do it all for under a grand.

As usual, a catch-22. As my outfeed is also my main workbench, no matter where the DC drop is, it’s in the way. I really want it from below. The slab is only 3 inches ( maybe) so it is not really that big a deal to cut it open and drop a 6 inch PVC in there and one for power. What is the catch-22? Well of course, dropping the blower on top of the cyclone is 180 degrees from the floor. I guess I could reverse it and blow into the cyclone rather than suck through it. I m not sure a good cyclone needs to be upright. It might work if horizontal. Fed from below, collection bin would need a 90. then into the blower. Then there is the concept of multiple small cyclones. I have an inclination they are more efficient. Maybe four of the small ClearView would actually be more efficient than one big Oneida?

I know I am crazy, but does any of this make sense? Lots more to visualize.

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tvrgeek

1388 posts in 2656 days


#12 posted 01-17-2021 09:59 PM

Or just rebuild the thing with a Wynn MERV 15 canister.

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clagwell

363 posts in 799 days


#13 posted 01-17-2021 10:12 PM

Keep in mind that no matter how good your filter is, you still have a lot of fine dust escaping pickup. It doesn’t really help much to have a 99.95% filter if you’re letting 20% of the fine dust escape before it gets to the filter.

Do you have a particle counter? Do you know for sure that you have a fine dust problem? If your canister is well used it’s probably seasoned close to HEPA anyway. If you get a particle counter that estimates both PM2.5 and PM10, like this one, you’ll know a lot more about your situation.

-- Dave, Tippecanoe County, IN --- Is there a corollary to Beranek.s Law that applies to dust collection?

View Robert's profile

Robert

4435 posts in 2487 days


#14 posted 01-17-2021 10:35 PM

Clag brings up a good point. Even the best system, best filters, etc does not obviate the need for PPE, especially when working with MDF. You simply cannot collect all the dust.

So, I have never viewed DC has an air cleaning system for my lung health. For me it is a dust collector whose main function is to keep me from constantly sweeping up shavings.

My philosophy is keep the air in the shop moving and let an air filtration unit pick it up. I’ve looked into HEPA shop filtration units, and they are not out of reach ($800-1000). So if that’s what matters to you most you give it some thought.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

6826 posts in 3500 days


#15 posted 01-17-2021 10:44 PM

I doubt it will work horizontal, but some folks have put a little tilt in theirs to accommodate a low ceiling and still have good performance. (I think Pentz talks about that on his site.) Some others have also set it up for the blower to force feed the cyclone, and it seems to work. But I think you’re missing Dave’s point (reinforced by Robert). Even a world class system will not catch all the dust at the source. For us hobbyists world class is mostly a pipe dream. So settling for Merv 13 filters isn’t really going to be a big hit. It’s true the only way you’ll know is with a particle counter, and while I’m suspicious of the accuracy of the cheaper units, it doesn’t matter. You need the comparison data (like running your sander versus walking into the shop) and for that they are the bees knees.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

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