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Hand tool dovetailing

6K views 50 replies 23 participants last post by  Kirk650 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Not really sure what I'm asking here but here goes.

I have been loving watching Rob Cosman hand-cut dovetails and thought I'd give it a try just for snits and giggles. I am a firm believer that having the right tools makes all of the difference in the world BUT, just to try my hand at it I just refuse to pay:

$250 for a saw (I have a few already including the one that @the fridge made for me
$50 for a fret saw (I've seen a few posts where someone bought the fret saw but switched back to a fine blade coping saw which is $8 at Lowes)

$30 for his wooden dovetail marker. (I have a plastic one that was $9 on Amazon)

The one item I can't seem to find a suitable substitute for is his $65 marking knife that has a sawtooth blade. I'm tempted to just buy the blade and make a handle.

I know there are lots of ways to hand-cut dovetails but Rob's system works and he does a great job of explaining it with 2 or 3 hrs of vids on how to do it and how to refine it.

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#3 ·
I'm cutting four mitered dovetail corners every day as part of making my bookcases.

Here are the tools I'm using:

#2 pencil
Stick of wood marked with the dovetail edges for the width of the boards I'm joining
Shop-made dovetail marker
Shop-made square
Blue combination square from the big box, used as a marking gauge for the baseline (with the pencil)
Veritas dovetail saw
Gramercy Tools turning saw
And a small rasp, since I'm dovetailing pine, and it's easier to file smooth than chisel the baseline.

I've got multiple marking knives. I'll use them if I'm looking for precision or if I'm working in hardwood, but for pine, a pencil is good enough for all my marks. I cut the dovetails tight, and test-fit, then a pass with the rasp fixes things if they're too tight.

I've got a Cosman dovetail saw. I'm using the Veritas more at the moment.

And I could get by without using about half the marking tools if I didn't mind resetting a gauge or square, but I made a bunch of them myself because I knew it would make life easier when I was making a bunch of dovetails. But the most important thing has been practice. I've made 20 boxes, and I'm still finding things I can improve.
 
#4 ·
Maybe you are asking why you should pay that much $ to try a grin ?

All you need is a saw, a chisel, a marking gauge and something that holds the work firmly.

Cosman's a great teacher. Lots of different approaches are out there, for variety I'd recommend Frank Kausz, Paul Sellers, Mike Pekovich + they aren't all marketing their products.

But… I am sure that saw is super nice.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
The funny thing about Cosman is he will sell you a $600 setup to cut dovetails. But in one of his videos(you can google it) he cuts perfect dovetails with a cheap hacksaw, and a drywall screw screwed into a block of wood as a marking gauge. Its ALL skill. Thats why Paul Sellers can also cut perfect dovetails with whatever used tools he buys on ebay or the ones he tells you to get on his Common Woodworking site.

For budget, this is my list:

Dovetail marker: Veritas dovetail marker saddle square combo- $14(also has the saddle square so you can mark across at the same time)https://www.craftsmanstudio.com/VeritasDovetailMarkers.html

Saw: Lie Nielsen DT saw: $125 or Veritas for $70( for wven cheape get a Gyokochu Dozuki for $45)

Marking: #2 pencil sharpened(or you can splurge and get the $12 Graphgear 1000 mechanical pencil that Chris Schwarz uses. If you are adamant on cutting it then just get the Swann Morton that Cosman resells with the notmal blades for $10 on Amazon(what Matt Estlea uses)

Coping Saw:
$16 for Olson coping saw at Tools For Working Wood. Lifetime supply of Pegas blades is like $6 more
https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/ms-cope.xx/deluxe_coping_saw_(360_degrees)_and_blades

Paul Sellers and some others don't saw out the waste but chop with a chisel. I find this crushes some kiln dried woods so i cope out most and then pare away.
 
#7 ·
Seems to be the key is …..how sharp the tools are, and the skill of the user…..more than who made the tools, or how much they cost….

If a $100 chisel isn't sharp….it is basically…useless. IF no one shows you HOW to use a tool….or keep it sharp….

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#8 ·
Seems to be the key is …..how sharp the tools are, and the skill of the user…..more than who made the tools, or how much they cost….

If a $100 chisel isn t sharp….it is basically…useless. IF no one shows you HOW to use a tool….or keep it sharp….

- bandit571
Yes indeed. Your work shows the importance of the skill of the user.
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have looked at the Rob Cosman video (link above)
I am not at all impressed by his technique.

I will stick with what Paul Sellers teaches.
Plenty of videos about through and half blind dovetails.
https://paulsellers.com/paul-sellers-videos/

No need for that micro-saw.

One can do a dovetail gauge by oneself.
 
#12 ·
I have cut dovetails by hand and I always like Rob Cosman's technique but can't seem to spring for that expensive dovetail saw but I really like the idea of a saw with the different pitch to the blade for marking and fast sawing. I made a 14 degree and and 8 degree template and I used the Japanese draw saw to actually cut the angled cuts and the bandsaw to remove the waste if the piece would fit in there or a scroll saw. i don't make them very often but like to practice once in while. I will have to look at Paul Sellers technique.

thanks, Jim
 
#13 ·
+1 w SMP. Grab some scrap and just do it with tools that you have (assuming you have a saw and chisel). In no time you will know what is (& isn't) an important tool for you.
 
#14 ·
I don't recall where I saw the technique, and as a disclaimer I do not frequently use dovetails, but while chasing a youtube rabbit hole I saw a trick with using a simple bandsaw fence jig to cut the tails after which I use the BS to remove most of the waste and pare the tails clean with a chisel, using the tails and an x-acto knife to mark the pins, which I cut close with a pull saw and then clean up with a chisel. I don't cut enough to bother with the versions that have all the ramps, but a lot of times I use dovetail connections inside of casework where they are more for the strength than the look and it's very quick and easy. It will also work for half blind and finer joints, which I did in this project, I just have to be a bit more precise with the chisel work.
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#15 ·
I like Rob's method but found the marking knife a little pricey too. I found this one for $18.00
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00124QFMA?psc=1&ref=ppxpopdtbasin_title

I settled on the Kats Moses guides and that marking knife. Was using a cheap pull saw but now have the Veritas pistol grip western saw. The fret saw is required if you need to saw into the saw kerf but the cheap coping saw will work if you saw into the waste instead of the dove tail saw kerf.
 
#16 ·
I don t recall where I saw the technique, and as a disclaimer I do not frequently use dovetails, but while chasing a youtube rabbit hole I saw a trick with using a simple bandsaw fence jig to cut the tails after which I use the BS to remove most of the waste and pare the tails clean with a chisel…

- ChefHDAN
Sorry, but that does not sound like it qualifies as a hand tooled dovetail. We haven't had a what-constitutes-hand-tooled debate in ages. It's time for a fresh one:

I hand cut my dovetails. I carefully set up my Leigh jig and skillfully guide my router-by hand-to achieve beautiful results.

Just kidding. That's not hand tooled either, but the point is, where do you draw the line? Is using anything other than marking tools, a saw and a chisel considered hand tooled? If I use one of the magnetic guides for my saw, is that still "hand tooled?"

Oh, and to further fan the flames-should you cut the pins or tails first?
 
#17 ·
Another completely different technique is watching Kevin Drake cut DTs and use his saws. (He is the maker of the Tite Mark for those not sure who he is). He has given me hands on guidance at using his products at a few tool shows, and its a fascinating process. He uses a "kerf starter" similar to Cosmans saw knife thingy, then uses feeler gauges, and his saws have a couple inches on each side with no teeth, and its much easier to start the cut, but you have to swing it like a pendulum, the momentum has to get it going. It feels strange at first but with his guidance I got used to it in just a few minutes.
You can check out his saws here to see what I mean:
https://www.glen-drake.com/

Overall, i just preferred the more traditional way that Paul Sellers uses, where you just take a little effort to learn how to properly use a saw and you don't need all those other fancy gizmos.
 
#20 ·
I use a Veritas dovetail saw (around $70), Veritas dovetail markers ($15), an Olsen coping saw ($12) with Pegas blades ($5) and a folding Stanley marking knife ($11) I also use painters tape when marking, peeling away the waste portions of the tape.

I used to use a Japanese pull saw, but I prefer the Veritas because the curled thread is on the back with the push stroke and I can see my line better as a result.

I'm sure Rob's saws are wonderful, but I cannot justify those prices for my own budget. The most I've ever spent on a saw is $175 for Lie-Nielsen tenon saw, and while it is beautiful, would say after using my beloved Veritas dovetail saw that the LN too is probably more than I should have spent.

Dovetails take a lot of repeated practice to get good, never mind perfect.
 
#21 ·
I learned how to do it using a bow saw I made myself. I bought a butcher saw blade, filed the teeth for ripping, and stoned off part of the set so it would cut a tighter kerf. It still works but the blade needs sharpening I think. I got a fancy bow saw with a Japanese blade later.

I use a claw shaped marking knife made from a piece of hack saw blade.

I learned how to do these things reading FWW articles years ago.
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
First off, I love this site.

My ramble:
Not that anyone cares but I have watched what seems like hundreds of hand-cut dovetailing vids over the last few years including most of the folks mentioned above. I looked at it as a kind of zen type exercise but I know I don't have the chisel skill that Paul Sellers has so I knew that would be an exercise in frustration. I have cut them using my PC dovetailing setup but that too is a pain to set up and I like to make jewelry boxes etc and that just seemed like taking a chainsaw to a dollhouse. I've managed to become proficient at a few joints for that purpose including using lock-miter router bits. My youtube feed keeps feeding me this kind of stuff to look at and Cosman is a good teacher with a well-explained method so I thought I'd give it a shot as over the last few years I have acquired the tools and equipment to have scary-sharp chisels and plane blades. I know that I am not going to be cranking out drawers etc but want to learn the skill without dumping a bunch of $ into something that I know I'm not going to use more than a few times a year if I'm lucky. I'm sure Cosman has wonderful tools but I can't really justify spending $250 because the saw has finer teeth at the tip of the saw.

Thanks @controlfreak and @hokieken for the blade suggestions and using the coping saw to cut without entering the kerf so, the $8 Irwin makes sense. Plus, I think I can use my shoulder plane to make the rabbet. Now, I'm all in for less than $50. I know there are many ways to skin a cat but I like the idea of a good detailed method to skin it hence the Cosman method.

I was about to give up but now it seems affordable. Bought some pine from the Borg to practice on. Sadly, I've had my 3rd request in a year to make a cremation urn box and thought it might be a nice touch if I can pull it off.

I'll post some progress info if I ever get to actually do them.
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
Its 75% sawing and 24% chisel. IOW you need the quality on the saw end of the game. For 1/2 the price, the Lie Nielsen dt saw is quite nice if you ever get one in your hands you'll agree with me.

That said, a japanese DT saw is a good option for even 1/2 of that.

The laying out can be done with pencil you don't need all the gadgets and gimmikcs like Cosman. All due respect, but I've seen him mark with an knife and move it over the width of the knife mark-come on!!

Before I had the LN I used a Veritas saw and it works fine. For years and years before that, I used a cheap gent's saw they do the job, but you need a saw file and set to get them working good.

Be careful what kind of wood you practice on. Get some poplar rather than pine. Soft wood is a lot harder to chisel.
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
Its 75% sawing and 24% chisel. IOW you need the quality on the saw end of the game. For 1/2 the price, the Lie Nielsen dt saw is quite nice if you ever get one in your hands you ll agree with me.

That said, a japanese DT saw is a good option for even 1/2 of that.

The laying out can be done with pencil you don t need all the gadgets and gimmikcs like Cosman. All due respect, but I ve seen him mark with an knife and move it over the width of the knife mark-come on!!

Before I had the LN I used a Veritas saw and it works fine. For years and years before that, I used a cheap gent s saw they do the job, but you need a saw file and set to get them working good.

Be careful what kind of wood you practice on. Get some poplar rather than pine. Soft wood is a lot harder to chisel.

- Robert
Thanks. Think I have some poplar laying around but will grab some more from the Borg.
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
Andy;

I'm thinking you have what you need to learn dovetails without spending any cash.

- Saw
- Pencil or pocket knife
- Chisel
- Coping saw
- Mallet or Hammer

You really do not need a dovetail gauge or saw toothed knife. Lay out the tools you'll use as a matter of routine, each time to you practice cutting. Here's (I think) everything I use.

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And these links will shine some light on my approach to learning DTs. Nothing wrong with stuff Cosman details, but he's never been my cup of tea.

https://cdn.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/DovetailaDay.pdf

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/05/08/dovetail-sawing-for-non-professionals/

Good luck!!
 

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