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Taking a turn

4K views 123 replies 16 participants last post by  AlaskaGuy 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Ok… so far you guys have helped me with making decisions on starting woodworking. Which tools to buy. Advice on what was supposed to be my first woodworking project (building a workstation out of my PM2000)....

Things have taken a turn. I all of a sudden realized that making my saw on wheels and rolling it up and down a ramp was a terrible idea. I also took another turn in my personally life and have decided that I'm not moving. Sooooooooo…. it turns out my first project is building a workshop. I had to share!!! I'm also still in the planning stages of the rest of it.

Wood Grass Tree Urban design Building


I just spent my weekend getting this going. Didn't quite finish the entire floating floor as I would have hoped. Honestly. I've NEVER built anything before. It's nothing special, but I'm proud of it. And I learned today that it is possible for your pain to hurt. Lol…

I'm going out of town next weekend but I will get started on the next stage in two weeks and I'm still a little vague on how I should go about the next stage. The building will be 16×24. I'm honestly thinking about building my trusses before my walls so I can streamline getting a roof on ASAP with the next upper layers not being treated wood. Thoughts?

I have other questions too!
 

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#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
from a building standpoint; there are so many questions.
what part of the world are you in ?
are the main joist/supports pressure treated?
how are the joists attached to the footers ?
do you have to have a permit to build a structure ?
the list of questions here are endless.
(but it is looking great so far).

Plant Wood Land lot Grass Composite material


Wood Rectangle Grass Plank Composite material


.
 

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#3 ·
Ummmm are those 4×4s and 2×4s??
I applaud you for getting after it but please do some studying on basic framing. Floor joists should be 2×6 minimum, 2×4s can't handle the load.
Are you doing this without a permit? If so are you in any sort of neighborhood? You can bank on somebody raining in your parade if the local building department catches wind.
Good luck with it! One day at a time :)
 
#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
I don't need a permit where I live. (Chattanooga TN "area") The only thing the commissioners office told me was that I needed an electrical inspection once it was wired.

And yes. All lumber for floating floor is pretreated. The skids, the joists, and the plywood going on top of that. I'm not done with the framing either. I'm going to put 14.5 inch brackets staggered amongst 3 rows in between the 16 inch center. And you may think I'm nuts, but I used 2×4x16 pretreated lumber for the 24" skids. I used 6 carriage bolts on on each beam to hold 3 rows of lumber staggering the 16" and 8" boards to make it 24" across. I then also used 3 inch exterior deck screws along the beams for added support. I also am making the outside frame doubled. I was thinking that would add support far the walls that will sit on the outer frame.

As for the floor joist, yes. I used 2×4 instead of 2×6. With the brackets, the support should suffice I would hope. Let me know if I'm utterly retarded. I've never done anything like this before

I also have not attached the joists to the footers yet. Is there a preferred method? I've only been at it for two days. I didn't quite get as far as I wanted. Doing it solo with three little ones running around means I'll have to top of stage one throughout the work week.
 
#5 ·
Buy the trusses, don't try to make them. They will be properly engineered and assembled. You don't want the roof coming down on your head. And they can buy lumber cheaper than you, cut pieces with less waste, and assemble with jigs. It is worth the extra cost.
 
#6 ·
on your next trip to the Big Box Store, look in the book section
for a book on Building Sheds & Buildings.
building a structure of this magnitude with zero experience and plans
can lead you down a path of frustration you may not be able to get out of.
the book will cover just about anything you NEED to know to build a structure.
the first shop I built back in 1980 was about 24×30'. I built most of it alone,
including the roof trusses. I had a book to reference. (but I had a poured concrete slab).
it can be done if you take your time and have some sort of visual plans to go by.

.
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'm a jack of many trades and a master of none. But I can say that my one true strength is the ability to learn with a decent level of detail through self teaching. I definitely am putting a level of meticulous planning into what I am doing before I do it. I can't stand flying blind.

Are trusses truly better to buy preassembled? I was honestly thinking about building all my trusses next since they are easily moved and stored. I found what seems to be a sturdy, yet simple, design that I can make a quick template on my subfloor with random wood waste. That way when my walls go up, I can immediately do the trusses. I'll take a look at prebuilt ones.

I also have not completely decided on which direction I'm going on the door. Should I go to a salvage place and buy a big "normal door"?? Should I build a double door? Does either have pros and cons to n regards to keeping the building climate controlled?
 
#9 ·
+1 on the 2×4 floor, I just don't think that is a sound foundation. While you still have time I would repurpose the studs for, well studs. I would also place some metal over each support block to act as a barrier to termites. You are very low to the ground there and I would Probably use treated wood anywhere below the plywood. I would also decide if you ever want to add heat or air now so you have an opportunity to insulate while building.
 
#10 ·
I spoke to a few on site shed building contractors about my flooring design with the 2×4 (which everything is pretreated). Apparently when they took out the consideration for relative building codes on their area, they seemed to all say that the strength integrity with using 2×4s at 16' center with brackets every 3-4 feet should be alright. In addition, using the pretreated 3/4 plywood will also add strength integrity to the floor. From what I'm hearing from those who do on site shed building, I should be fine. I do appreciate the advise and concerns. It was enough to make me dig at it a little more, but I think I'll continue the floor as planned.

And most definitely… I will add more insulation now. That part honestly slipped my mind. Much easier to do that now than later.
 
#11 ·
How is it anchored to mother earth? Is it just sitting on blocks, or anchored to poured piers? The wind can get under a raised structure like that, and move it enough for doors and windows not to work, or even more damage. And yes, sheds are built with 2×4 floors, but not being used for heavy cast iron machines like table saws and anything else in your future as the hobby expands. Run electrical under the floor for the table saw, along with dust collection duct. You want to minimize tripping hazzards.
 
#12 ·
Hi Tellme
I'm a 30+ year contractor and yes 2×4 sub-deck is not the norm but by cutting the spans down 3-4" OC you should be fine ,you don't have to build or buy trusses you can stick frame it starting with a built-up ridge beam ,it's more time consuming and a little bit of a challenge for you to cut the properer angle and birds mouth but once you get one you will have a pattern for both sides assuming you get your ridge beam centered properly. All said and done if it were me I would use factory trusses just for the convenience and speed, The cost in my area for factory-made trusses is probably about 25-35% more than the material to stick build it so it depends on what your budget will take and if you want to gain the experience of building your own or stick building.
You mentioned you were not sure which way you want the door to swing, if you have it swing in you will be using up space but that is the most typical way have exterior doors swing. If you haven't covered your floor yet you might think about running wiring for your table saw so you don't have to run a cord overhead or across the floor,usually I would suggest you run some ducting for dust collection too,but your floor is too close to the ground for that.
It was suggested you get a book from the box store about how to build your shop but I've many of the books written about woodworking and construction can be way off base because the many of the people write them have not actually done what their writing about. I think if this old house has a video on the subject Tommy Silva is one the best carpenter/contractors out there that really knows what he's talking about.
Good luck with your build, your welcome to PM me if you feel I can help with questions.
 
#13 ·
I'm totally going to build my trusses. Just not quite clear on every detail yet. But I'm thinking a simple rafter design with the birds mouth and ridge beam. I'm thinking 3 inch pitch with 4 inch overhang. I suppose after the course of this thread I should go with 2×6 for the rafters. Lol. Little vague on where I should put the OC (considering either 16 or 24).... I am planning to have a second 2×4 along the top of the walls to distribute the weight where centering the rafters in line with the wall joists isn't so detrimental. My original plan for my walls is 2×4x8 nontreated on 16 OC.

Thoughts?
 
#15 ·
It depends on the snow load and type of roofing you have in mind,but if in doubt go 16" on center 2×6, if you don't have much snow go with what's called 4n 12 pitch, a 4" of drop for every foot of run. there are a couple of videos out there on how to build trusses , here's one.

 
#17 ·
2×4s on 16 inch centers with ~5 foot spans might be okay for a 12×12 garden shed.

I wouldn't trust it for a 16×24 foot building, housing heavy machines, lumber, benches etc. It may not fail, but it will be awful spongy, and no longer flat when you have your machinery, benches, and lumber in there.

So the builders of garden sheds said you should be OK with 2×4 joists on 16" centers, spanning 3 to 4 foot between beams. But it looks like yours are spanning closer to 5 feet between beams. Thus, the joist spans are 125% over even builders of garden sheds standards. Therefore, you also have fewer than specified beams to support those overloaded joists. And they appear to be spanning a similarly long 5 feet?

I'm also concerned that you don't have footings directly under the rim joists at ends of the floor joists. Therefore, the walls will be transferring the entire weight of walls and roof (in other words, most of the weight of the structure), to the cantilevered ends of those 2×4 floor joists, back to the beams and footings. Again, this is probably OK for a garden shed with less than half the square footage of your building, but this ain't no garden shed.

How are the tripled 2×4 beams anchored to the footings, into the ground? A 16×24' building can catch a lot of wind. I hope there is more than gravity holding it down, or at least on top of its footings.

How deep is your frost line, and do the footings exceed that depth?

You need more than "the support should suffice I would hope" to ensure the integrity of the building, and the safety of its contents and occupants.

Keep us posted!
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
I haven't added the staggered brackets between the joist yet. Yes. The beams are 4 feet apart.

No. The brackets that I will place between the joists are not installed yet. It will naturally have a staggered pattern.

A1 Jim has already walked me through my issue with anchoring my floor into "Mother Earth"… so there is a solution that will be implemented for that. With that solution also solves the concern with the elevated framing edge bearing the weight of the walls. Those will have notched 4×4s supporting it concreted in 2 feet into the ground.

Everyone here is awesome and the input is being taken into account. We almost never see snow here… and what do you mean by "where's the frost line?"

Keep it coming guys. I love this place. Lol
 
#19 ·
I doubt that this would pass code in my city for a deck much less a building of that size. If you try to lookup maximum spans for floor joists, I will be willing to bet that you won't find any specs for 2×4's because no one does that on anything but a garden shed, which this isn't. Also, I've never seen a pier and beam foundation that didn't have piers and beams under/along the outside where the wall (and the roof) is going to be transferring all of its weight. Just google images of pier and beam foundations and you will see what I mean. You are basically going to be putting your walls and roof on a short diving board.
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
Ok. After some digging and consideration of what everyone was saying here, I am making some adjustments on floor before proceeding.

1) I am placing a 5th beam so that the ends of my floor frame will sit directly on the beam at the ends to support the weight of the roof and walls. That also puts my beams 4 feet intervals

2) I am raising my structure another 4 inches by placing another concrete block on all of my pads. This will get my low end off the ground.

3) My frost line is considered 12 inches deep. So I am placing 4×4s concreted in at each end of all beams I am doing 6 feet apart on the front and back support beams and 8 feet apart on the 3 middle beams. The area I live in has very mild winters and snow is a very rare commodity.

4) I am also placing a moisture barrier under my floor frame. And just below my 3/4 plywood… and sorry. I am keeping the 2×4 design. The brackets I put in really added strength and I believe that will be ok.

Any other thoughts? I should have this all completed before the weekend once my buddy brings his tractor and auger attachment over.
 
#21 ·
I'm totally going to build my trusses. Just not quite clear on every detail yet. But I'm thinking a simple rafter design with the birds mouth and ridge beam. I'm thinking 3 inch pitch with 4 inch overhang. I suppose after the course of this thread I should go with 2×6 for the rafters. Lol. Little vague on where I should put the OC (considering either 16 or 24).... I am planning to have a second 2×4 along the top of the walls to distribute the weight where centering the rafters in line with the wall joists isn't so detrimental. My original plan for my walls is 2×4x8 nontreated on 16 OC.

Thoughts?

- TellMePlease
Roof support isn't a kind of whatever thing, it's science, especially if you live where the snow flies. Snow load on a roof of poor design is a collapsed building. If you lack the experience to go right at it. I would always suggest you contact the local for such things, and turn over all or part of the construction.

If that won't work, definitely go with trusses, and still go to the local lumberyard with truss making capability, and if nothing else purchase one Gable end, and one truss they suggest you use for the size building you are making. Once you have the "layout" you can reproduce them. Only if you make exact copies will they work though, slight changes will at bare minimum give you a wonky looking roof, at worst an unsafe one.
 
#22 ·
I don't have snow where I live. I am going for the 2×6 on 16 OC with 1/2 ply. I will line them up with the wall joists. Also going for the 4/12 pitch. I spoke to one of my buddies with years of construction experience who said everything you all have. I won't cut corners.
 
#23 · (Edited by Moderator)
you're saying wall joists, do you mean studs?
so let me get this straight, your screen name is tellmeplease, you ask for advice, get it, don't like it so continue with most of your original plan.
I have no idea what you think 4×4s and an auger are going to contribute to your design.
And to top it off (literally) you're going to build trusses out of 2×6s to go over your 2×4 floor?
The 2×6s should be the floor structure and use the 2×4s for trusses.

Good luck with it, I wish you the best
 
#24 ·
This whole thing sounds like a comedy. When you get done, you are going to flip the building over so you have a solid floor? With properly engineered and built trusses, 2×4's are used for trusses. With a high wall on one side, you could use a shed roof and not need trusses.
 
#25 ·
Cool. 2×4s it is for trusses. Maybe the idea of buying one as a template to copy is a good way to go.

And what am I missing? I thought many of the concerns was with the strength of the foundation and it being anchored. So I'm digging post holes to concrete in 4×4 posts below the frost line placed at 4 foot intervals with beams placed under the outer frame on each long side of the building (so no overhang) in order to help support the weight of the structure.

I kept the idea of the 2×4s because the damage is done and this is on a budget. I already cut the braces between the joists. So I am working with using the 2×4s as the floor frame. Thats really the only thing that I've not changed. Is that really killing everything about what's coming next for this?
 
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