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Woodworking has highlighted quality / china problem.

4K views 66 replies 29 participants last post by  LittleBlackDuck 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am new to woodworking. As I have learned and watched and listened the past month a feeling of quality vs dollar has become a sort of ugly feeling to me. Is it just me or is quality slipping below acceptable levels. What is worse are the Americans that embrace "buy it cheap sell it cheap". I can not put my finger on why woodworking has highlighted this, maybe because it is night and day different, high cost vs low and high quality vs low, very little grey area in the middle which is where I usually find myself. I believe cost may be rising in china and the only wiggle room is quality. All I can account for is me, and I am quickly becoming unable to justify buying junk.
 
#2 ·
+1 here.
I'm fortunate that I have 90 % of what I need to carry my craft to the winter of my life. I started my journey before the internet. I feel sad for those that are just starting out and have very little choices. Most will not be able to fund their craft from the things they make.
Even the vintage handtool market has gone nuts in the past 5 or 10 years.
Wood prices are up and YouTube is teaching the next generation how to cut corners and disregard integrity and pride. The idea of working with and collaboration with others artists have been replaced with individualism. Subscribers and ego is mostly what's taught.
Other then that everything is great in the world :)

Good Luck
 
#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
In the professional work iI can sell a cabinet box for $10 less a foot without losing quality and contraction strength my ears are all open. Now if you want pocket screws In a piece of furniture to save a dollar, you might as well go to the Walmarts…..

Skill make the woodworker , not the tool….
 
#4 ·
+1 for me too.

I am a newbie, and the internet gives ideas, and possible projects, but i despise youtube. I prefer to read steps people take to accomplish something. I try to read as much as i can, and digest, analyze, and sketch out my steps and visualize the next step and end product. I believe in asking the more experienced questions, and seeing the approach to do. I take extreme pride in my craftsmanship, and hate it even if I am off 1/16 of an inch.

The most important tool in anything is the brain. Your brain guides the hands, which guide the tool, which impacts the wood.

I agree with JackDuren, Skill makes the woodworker, not the tool.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
The most important tool in anything is the brain. Your brain guides the hands, which guide the tool, which impacts the wood.
I agree with JackDuren, Skill makes the woodworker, not the tool.
- Dawg23
Yes, the most important tool is the brain, however, far too many people try to utilise that tool trying to save a few shekels rather than achieve what their primary goal is… like the ex-MIL who'll spend $10+ in petrol to drive to where she'll save $2 on the purchase price… and that's not costing her time…

Yes, skill makes the woodworker, however, good tools will make a hacker like me cope… I haven't the luxury of starting an apprenticeship, making thousands of dovetail drawers in my first years till I can do them in my sleep or learn the hard way the difference between a right handed and left handed hammer. Its the better (and usually the more expensive) tools that help me bridge the gap, as I don't have those countless years to gain the necessary experience after retirement. The luxury of being taught by a master craftsman is scarcer than duck's teeth and YouTube is populated by far too many shoot-from-the-hip cowboys... that can't keep their balance on a rocking horse (me included).

I cost my leisure time… allbeit dodgy accounting, and usually that justifies some of my extravagances… at least to me…

Unfortunately, that is the main reason behind why most of my suggestions/comments are often the most expensive.
 
#6 ·
I've always said it's the software, not the hardware, I guess my version of Jack's comment.
... but I have another comment.
Stop making foolish generalizations! There are many very high quality manufactured goods coming from China, just as there are crappy ones coming from the USA. In each case the better ones generally cost more than the crap but both kinds come from both places.

... rant ends …
 
#7 ·
Interesting topic, and interesting comments. The difference in quality workmanship is not just in woodworking. If you look close its in just about everything. I suspect you just notice it in woodworking more, because that is where you are looking deep into the tools of the trade and/or hobby. For me I'm a weekend warrior woodworker. Starting out my tools came from sears and the big box stores.. As I have grown in skill level, and and available time, and financial resources my tools have grown in quality. It is true, in woodworking there seems to be a big price gap between somewhat acceptable and quality. It's sad, but the mid range tool seems to be long gone…..... will most likely hurt the hobby long term as using cheap tools just drives frustration.
 
#8 ·
WOW!!
Have I stumbled on the ww forum version of CNN or MSNBC, or…
On another forum WC, you guys should check out posts by Australian Derek Cohan. No negativity there, only positive aspects of our craft. There is quality everywhere, you just need the right attitude and you will find it.
This week I received my first English Infill Plane, 100 years+ old. A fine example of old time quality craftsmanship. Has that craftsmanship disappeared? Hardly! Lie Nelson makes planes that are now as good and yes better than those produced earlier.
I recently turned 80 and thank God healthy.
Everything today is better than yesterday - think positive and get life.

John J
 
#9 ·
My apologies for opening the pandora's box. I will blame the beer. In Vino Veritas. It is the attention to details, and the little things that really get me. Tools make it easy to go from idea to finish product. I have HF miter saw and table saw in my shop (for now) they are acceptable, but are they something I would use forever, probably not. I notice alot of things in woodworking and it spills over into daily life. I build cubicles for a living, and in the small team we have I can see the differences between myself, and the others. A couple of members really shortcut and do acceptable work, but a couple of us really take it a step further and get that extra effort into real quality, which saves us enormous amounts of time and effort later on. Maybe I am off the mark, but I wonder if the 5/5 rule applies. Can you see it from 5 feet away, or will you remember it in 5 years? If the answer is no on both, then, is it good enough? Only you can answer that. If the end-user is pleased, then I am happy.

My apologies again if I am ranting and rambling. Cheers!
 
#10 ·
On one hand, many years ago I saw an article about a Mexican (a native of Mexico living in Mexico) man who built beautiful furniture using mostly homemade tools including a table saw made from a washing machine and pallets.

On the other hand crappy tools suck and quality tools are a joy. I go out of my way to buy American, or quality, when possible.
 
#11 ·
I agree with Paul. There is good, bad, and awesome all over the world. In the USA even a name like Starrett can be on the block. I guarantee you a 6" Starrett top of the line combination square isn't half as good as the same model from 1965, but it sure costs a ton of cash. You have to evaluate each purchase at the time of purchase. Porter Cable was forever a trusted, hard working line of tools, then B$D bought them. Stuff happens.
 
#12 ·
WOW!!
Have I stumbled on the ww forum version of CNN or MSNBC, or…
On another forum WC, you guys should check out posts by Australian Derek Cohan. No negativity there, only positive aspects of our craft. There is quality everywhere, you just need the right attitude and you will find it.
This week I received my first English Infill Plane, 100 years+ old. A fine example of old time quality craftsmanship. Has that craftsmanship disappeared? Hardly! Lie Nelson makes planes that are now as good and yes better than those produced earlier.
I recently turned 80 and thank God healthy.
Everything today is better than yesterday - think positive and get life.

John J

- zoro39
I agree Lie Nelson makes a quality tool. But lets be serious. Lie Nelson tools are on the high end of the craft and can not be obtained by the average woodworker and hobbyist. The point is, that unless you have the financial resources it is hard to find a good quality tool. For me, I can't afford $300 plus for a hand plane. I think back when I was starting, it was difficult to justify $50 for a hand plane. Yes you get what you pay for, but you have to stay within your budget capacity as well. Yes excellent quality can be obtained at a high price, and acceptable quality can be obtained at a lower price. What's disappearing is the mid-range.
 
#14 ·
If you're seeing garbage on Youtube, you're watching the wrong Youtube videos. There are tons of quality content producers making videos worlds better than the scraps we settled for from PBS in the past.

I'm old enough to remember both, and you can't compare what you have access to now from top quality video producers to the past.

It's a platform which people can use to make garbage, or they can put more effort in and make great videos.

Charles Neil (RIP), Marc Spagnuolo, etc. There's amazing work out there, and Youtube is an invaluable resource for finding it. I know I've learned more from watching masters at work than I ever did watching Norm when I was younger.

On the tool quality issue: there are also fantastic midrange tools available, you just need to do your homework. Narex chisels, for one, are an excellent midrange value. There aren't midrange hand planes per se, but the Wood River ones are fine, even if they're more expensive than most of what I'd call "mid range." You have to hit the used market for something in that ~$40 sweet spot. It takes time.

Want a midrange table saw? Grizzly has you covered. Good value in measuring/marking tools? PEC cosmetic seconds from eBay. There are lots of deals like that - you just have to find them. Whinging isn't going to make tools magically appear.
 
#15 ·
If you re seeing garbage on Youtube, you re watching the wrong Youtube videos….
..... Charles Neil (RIP), Marc Spagnuolo, etc. There s amazing work out there, .....
.... you just have to find them. Whinging isn t going to make tools magically appear.
- jonah
Words of wisdom, however, therein lies the problem… how are people to know you are not one of those cranks that makes false recommendations?
I'm not having a go at you j... but there are not too many people out there saying "watch/buy my crap"... one needs to be "educated" to realise what is being regurgitated is crap… like it's no good saying "read the fine print" if you're eyesight is bad and you haven't got glasses.
As they say it's the squeaky wheel…
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
I can say without reservation that most of the YouTube woodworking videos are far from reality.
Esp the ones that have shiny new tools all neatly organized behind them on a wall.
I can say that because I know first hand what it takes to actually build a commissioned piece. There's no place for a camera or anyone who's not involved with the work.
Your either a woodworker Craftsman that's builds furniture, turns wood and carves wood or not. You cannot be both.
We cannot warship two masters.

Good Luck
 
#20 ·
I though you tube was how hobby woodworkers learned woodworking?

- JackDuren

That and how to make a videos.

On a serious note Jack how long were you a professional Cabinet maker. I thought I read on one of your post that your retired now.
Maybe I'm mistaken

- Aj2
Started In a commercial/residential cabinet shop in July 1983. My last day working as a furniture maker was was July 2019 when the doctors put me on disability I think i figured I had about 80,000 hrs in not counting after hours in my shop doing cabinets…
 
#21 ·
I though you tube was how hobby woodworkers learned woodworking?

- JackDuren

That and how to make a videos.

On a serious note Jack how long were you a professional Cabinet maker. I thought I read on one of your post that your retired now.
Maybe I'm mistaken

- Aj2

Started In a commercial/residential cabinet shop in July 1983. My last day working as a furniture maker was was July 2019 when the doctors put me on disability I think i figured I had about 80,000 hrs in not counting after hours in my shop doing cabinets…

- JackDuren
Very good to have you among us.
Do you have a favorite Furniture maker or Cabinet maker that you admired when you started in your craft. Or now?
 
#22 ·
When I started there wasn't much at the library to read on. As the internet took off a lot more became available. I got into game tables and looked at Mark Lackley work. He's one of the few putting time into game tables.
 
#24 ·
Have to say, I am a bit surprised at the negativity about youtube…
I did same woodworking and learned some basic skills back in high school, but never did any serious woodworking after that, until now, when I decided to get back into it.
Started to put my shop together, and a lot of info came from the internet. I based my decisions about what to buy and what not, on what I saw and read on the web, especially from youtube. I think youtube is a good source to find out the pro's and con's of different tools/brands, and it also gives lot of info about how to do some things, or to do them in a different way. For example, before, I had no idea that you could flatten a slab with a router and a sled…Or that you could build tabletops out of wood and epoxy..or whatever, then list is endless.
Of course, there is also a lot of BS on youtube, so you have to somehow learn how to separate the chaff from the wheat…
 
#25 ·
Throwing my 2 cents in here…

You guys have brought up some good points, my main one is I get ideas on things I can make myself from the videos. BUT! Some of these people on y.t. should not be showing how they use the table saw etc because every thing they do makes me cringe about how close to cutting fingers off they come.
There are hacks, there are good quality producers (video and woodwork), and then there are the unsafe hacks.

I am still in the 10 digit club, but I came close once and cant stand watching the unsafe stuff.

Oh! bonus tip. I discovered that you can speed up a y.t. video up to 2x as fast so the long videos go much faster :)
 
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