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explai rake angle

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Forum topic by Karda posted 05-11-2020 06:12 AM 353 views 0 times favorited 11 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Karda

2292 posts in 1331 days


05-11-2020 06:12 AM

can somebody explain rake angle so I can understand it. I have been reading about saw sharpening. The diagrams are worthless. The explain rake angle and break the tooth into angle but they never ever indicaste the cutting direction front or back of saw. how are you supposed to no where to file the rake if you don’t know which direction they are pointed. sorry i am very frustrated


11 replies so far

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Lazyman

5446 posts in 2164 days


#1 posted 05-11-2020 01:46 PM

The rake angle is measured in the direction the saw cuts so for a typical western style hand saw, which cuts on the push stroke, a positive rake angle would lean or angle forward and and negative angle would lean back towards the handle. Zero would be perpendicular. Another way to think about it is that with a positive rake, the tooth sort of acts like a like a chisel or hand plane blade with the point forward and slices and lifts the wood. A negative rake is more like you would hold a hand scraper (ignore the hook you put on it) with the edge tilted back.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Aj2

3089 posts in 2575 days


#2 posted 05-11-2020 02:04 PM

Yep Nathan got it right. Don’t over think it Karda.
Here’s a picture.

-- Aj

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Karda

2292 posts in 1331 days


#3 posted 05-11-2020 09:49 PM

ok thanks

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Karda

2292 posts in 1331 days


#4 posted 05-25-2020 11:30 PM

ok I get rake angle but how do you measure it on to the angle block. I tried to measure a 4 degree angle net to this hole but 4 degrees is almost straight what am I missing

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KYtoolsmith

161 posts in 637 days


#5 posted 05-26-2020 01:22 AM

Karda, I’m not sure I understand the picture… What are you making? Some sort of saw filing guide? When I sharpen my saws I’m normally following the existing rake. Therefore I go by feel. I place the file so it is cutting equally on both the front cutting edge and the rear of the next tooth. I set the fleam angle and use an equal number of full file strokes on each tooth. Usually no more than four strokes per tooth to touch up a saw. No jig required.
Regards, The Kentucky Toolsmith!

-- "Good enough" is just another way of saying "it could be better"...

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Karda

2292 posts in 1331 days


#6 posted 05-26-2020 02:33 AM

i am making saw filing jig,one of the saws is a rip I want to make into a crosscut, The others are old saws with no existing angles. I want a guide. I am not so good I can do with out it will help get a better filling job. I can guess a the rake but it will not be consistent

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Lazyman

5446 posts in 2164 days


#7 posted 05-26-2020 12:34 PM

A cross cut saw would usually have a rake of at least 10° and more like 15°. A 4° rake would be more like a rip and up to about 10° is often called a hybrid saw. It seems to me that the type of jig you are making is more for resharpening a cross cut than for cutting or changing the teeth. For what you are trying to do (converting), you may want a jig that also controls the rake. Something like this.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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HokieKen

14074 posts in 1915 days


#8 posted 05-26-2020 02:33 PM

Why 4 degrees? Just curious. I go with zero rake on rip saws and 10-15 degrees on crosscut. But, on the guide that your making (if it’s the type I’m thinking) the angle you cut on the face of that block is how you set your fleam, not the rake. The rake would be set by drawing a line 4 degrees (or however much) off vertical and aligning the face of your file with that line.

In this picture, you can see the 15 degree line and how the file is aligned to it.

To clarify, with the guide in that picture, you would get a 30 degree fleam angle by holding the cut edge perpendicular to the saw plate. I prefer to cut that angle so you hold the block aligned with the saw plate personally. But, it’s really just a matter of which way lets you eyeball it the easiest.

Let me just add that sharpening saws is frustrating in the best of circumstances when you’re first trying to learn it. Filing in new teeth or reshaping teeth from crosscut to rip or visa-versa is even harder. So your frustration is certainly understandable and to be expected! Don’t let it beat you down though ;-)

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

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Karda

2292 posts in 1331 days


#9 posted 05-26-2020 03:27 PM

ok to clarify I have some cross cuts and some rip filed back saws and 2 pruning saws. 2 of the back saws I want to make a crosscut. I will do thew pruning saws first, they have the largest teeth but they are crosscut. But for some reason I can’t get my mind wrapped around what part of the tooth is the rake filed on. Its the front of the tooth but which tooth the tooth on the handle side or the tip side. If I am going to get a hand rip hand saw ai will have to make my own. I already have a pattern, my pruning saw is 5ppi

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Lazyman

5446 posts in 2164 days


#10 posted 05-26-2020 03:56 PM

What style of teeth does the pruning saw currently have? Are you completely filing off the teeth to cut new ones?

Unless they are Japanese style pull saws (unlikely), they probably cut on the push stroke. On rip saws that means that the rake is on the side away from the handle. While cross cut saws also work primarily on the push stroke and the rake is also specified on the side away the handle, there are cross cut saws where the angle on both sides of the tooth is basically the same but if you are shooting for a 15° rake, that would be on the side away from the handle.

Maybe this picture will help.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Karda

2292 posts in 1331 days


#11 posted 05-26-2020 04:05 PM

thanks now it makes sense, all my saws are not Japanese. My pruning saw are old, 1 is as old as I am. The teeth are in very good condition they only need some touch my old crosscuts are the ones that are going to need refiling. one has very bad teeth, that one I may re cut the teeth for a ripsaw. Thanks for your help and patience. Mike

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