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Veritas or LN 4 1/2

2K views 25 replies 13 participants last post by  therealSteveN 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Last week I dropped my no 4 plane and it broke in half. I'll definitely pick up an old Stanley or similar at a yard or estate sale in the next few months when going outside is a thing again but in the meantime, I've decided to pick up a premium smoother. I'm wondering if anyone has first-hand experience with both planes, particularly the Veritas? I'm wondering if the Norris adjuster is annoying or whether people like it? I'm sure I'd be happy with either plane in the long run but with things like this, I tend to way over-analyze. Oh well, what do you think?
 
#2 ·
I've only got to use the LN at one of their events. Its a sexy beast. I have no doubt the Veritas functions just as well and the plus side is the PMV-11. But you could also do what the Schwarz does and buy the LN and put The pmv-11 iron in it. Personally I think the LN beats out the Veritas in looks hands down.
 
#3 ·
I have the Veritas LA #4 and a 55 deg. Veritas #4 (both PMV-11) The iron make them worth the purchase but the Norris adjuster and blade set screws are also very functional. Also have a Veritas cabinet scrapper for that stuff nothing else will work on. That said I use my Stanley #4 (also PMV-11 iron) a lot more until the special function of either Veritas is called for? LOL, even the Bedrock 604 sometimes calls out to do some work. Recently acquired a Millers Falls 900 which is also a #4 size plane that may take some time to get used to. Have a few LN planes but not a fan of there bench series, maybe the brass ones?
 
#8 ·
I'm with Andre. I have a LN 4 1/2 with a 55 degree frog and a Bedrock 604 1/2 with a standard frog. They are both excellent planes, but they are large, heavy beasts - the LN is heavier than the Bedrock - and they are relatively hard to push. I don't use them unless I have a large surface to smooth, which is not very often. My regular #4 and even my #3 get a lot more use. FWIW, I'm a LN fan. I own several Veritas specialty planes, but all of my bench planes are either LNs or Stanleys. I'm sure the Veritas planes are excellent; I just don't care for the looks.
 
#9 ·
Yeah, I'm leaning toward the LN with a standard frog. I have a few Krenov planes with higher frog angles and a cabinet scraper I use for really bad grain.

I've never actually used a 4 1/2, but figured bigger is better. Which do you prefer as your main plane a number 4 or 4 1/2?
 
#10 ·
I m with Andre. I have a LN 4 1/2 with a 55 degree frog and a Bedrock 604 1/2 with a standard frog. They are both excellent planes, but they are large, heavy beasts - the LN is heavier than the Bedrock - and they are relatively hard to push. I don t use them unless I have a large surface to smooth, which is not very often. My regular #4 and even my #3 get a lot more use. FWIW, I m a LN fan. I own several Veritas specialty planes, but all of my bench planes are either LNs or Stanleys. I m sure the Veritas planes are excellent; I just don t care for the looks.

- MPython
I've got a similar set-up. I have the high angle LN but my bedrock is a standard frog 604 but I have an O1 Hock iron in it. I grab the 604 90% of the time but when you need that high angle frog, you need it.
 
#11 ·
I m with Andre. I have a LN 4 1/2 with a 55 degree frog and a Bedrock 604 1/2 with a standard frog. They are both excellent planes, but they are large, heavy beasts - the LN is heavier than the Bedrock - and they are relatively hard to push. I don t use them unless I have a large surface to smooth, which is not very often. My regular #4 and even my #3 get a lot more use. FWIW, I m a LN fan. I own several Veritas specialty planes, but all of my bench planes are either LNs or Stanleys. I m sure the Veritas planes are excellent; I just don t care for the looks.

- MPython

I ve got a similar set-up. I have the high angle LN but my bedrock is a standard frog 604 but I have an O1 Hock iron in it. I grab the 604 90% of the time but when you need that high angle frog, you need it.

- mramseyISU
Actually my first bench planes were all Krenov style with Hock irons, even a 2" blade smoother that does get used for really special projects!
I almost always start with smallest and project dictates which plane, sometimes only a card scrapper is used?
 
#12 ·
I actually really like Krenov style planes, I think the main barrier to me using them exclusively as bench planes is the number I'd need to be productive. I think I'd need 2 good Krenov smoothers and 2 good Krenov jacks to be efficient because of the time it takes to switch between different kinds of cuts. Currently I have a great smoother, a good 18" jointer, and a bad jack plane. Right now shop time is a lot more valuable than money and I just want a good reliable smoother that I don't have to think about. I do look forward to making more wooden planes when I get through a few of my outstanding projects.
 
#14 ·
Yeah, I m leaning toward the LN with a standard frog. I have a few Krenov planes with higher frog angles and a cabinet scraper I use for really bad grain.

I ve never actually used a 4 1/2, but figured bigger is better. Which do you prefer as your main plane a number 4 or 4 1/2?

- Thorbjorn88
I don't have LN or Veritas planes but I do have a full complement of vintage Millers Falls planes so I can jump in on this one. The 4-1/2 size is by far my favorite smoother and general purpose bench plane. I like the feel of the extra weight personally and the extra width makes smoothing wide boards much quicker. The added length makes it a capable plane for jointing shorter boards too. I use my #4 size occasionally but could live without it if it disappeared. Of course Paul Sellers can build a house with nothing but a #4 so there's that… ;-)
 
#16 ·
Have 'owned' both brands, but not in same size. Hated sharpening LN A2 blade so much, I returned the demo/loaner plane back to it's owner, instead of buying it. The Veritas PM-11 steel is easier to sharpen and holds edge longer. Made any difference in using Norris adjuster irrelevant for me.

Like PM-11 for plane blades so much, majority of my Bedrock planes have Veritas PM-11 replacement irons and A2 chip breakers too. That is another reason I sold the LN. Found buying PM-11 replacements in existing restored Bedrock's was cheaper than new LN planes, and I can't tell the difference in performance?

YMMV
 
#17 ·
Many a time I have been to shows where both a LN, and a LV booth sat side by side. In each variant of testing I kept picking the LV planes as the ones I liked the best. Also evidenced by no ownership of any LN's. but I have me some LV's.

LV's kinda goofy looking sometimes, but darned if they aren't cutting edge fabulous. Plus as said before that PM-V11 metal is the real deal.

A little back story on it.

http://www.pm-v11.com/Story.aspx
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
Have owned both brands, but not in same size. Hated sharpening LN A2 blade so much, I returned the demo/loaner plane back to it s owner, instead of buying it. The Veritas PM-11 steel is easier to sharpen and holds edge longer. Made any difference in using Norris adjuster irrelevant for me.

Like PM-11 for plane blades so much, majority of my Bedrock planes have Veritas PM-11 replacement irons and A2 chip breakers too. That is another reason I sold the LN. Found buying PM-11 replacements in existing restored Bedrock s was cheaper than new LN planes, and I can t tell the difference in performance?

YMMV
- CaptainKlutz
Huh, I only have one A2 blade, a toothed blade for my Veritas LAJ which doesn't get sharpened as often or to the same degree I would a smoothing plane iron. So I can't say I really have much experience honing A2. Do you use a micro-bevel or hollow grind at all? What medium do you use? I use either a micro-bevel or hollow grind on most of my blades and hone using diamond stones up to 1200 then strop. Like I said I don't have good direct experience but it sounds surprising that it's that much more difficult.

CaptainKlutz and therealSteveN you have me second guessing a little bit now.
 
#19 ·
I know Paul Sellers swears by th 4 1/2. If he could only have one plane it would be a 4 1/2 or 4, but he uses both a lot. Maybe i should buy an old 4 1/2 and try it for a whe.

- SMP
I've always liked a 4 1/2 over a 4, but I prefer a Junior Jack 5 1/4, for a 5. The skinny mini. I'm probably weird. I also like a 7, but not an 8, and use a 6 a lot more than either. I think it's which of the hoard works best for you.
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
CaptainKlutz and therealSteveN you have me second guessing a little bit now.

- Thorbjorn88
Do they ever have woodworking shows anywhere near you? A 100 mile drive is nothing to be able to play in both camps at once, and both companies display openly, with a use them till ya drop attitude. Plus it's a lot of fun, and they guys in the booth are pretty well schooled to talk with.

I definitely do give the nod to LN for talent. If you get the chance to bend Deneb Puchalski's ear you can learn a LOT quickly.

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/pages/deneb-puchalski

Of course everything he tells you, can transfer to a LV plane :) Tom Lie Nielson hates that. Probably not he's pretty mellow.
 
#22 ·
Do you use a micro-bevel or hollow grind at all? What medium do you use?
- Thorbjorn88
My first purchase of Hock A2 blades and Japanese Blue Steel chisels forced to change my sharpening process. Scary sharp and/or generic King water stones tool forever to get an edge on harder steel. Norton stones were a step up, but not enough. Diamond stones left scratches, and had to polish with 10k stone, or buy a $200 ultra fine diamond stone.

On advice of ToolsfromJapan, changed to Sigma II stones and they made hard steel tolerable to sharpen. Issue with all others was amount of strokes/time required, not making a sharp edge, as all methods worked EVENTUALLY. The right stones reduced the time/strokes required by at least 2/3rds.

I flat grind plane blades with 200/400 grit water stones, and hollow grind chisels on 8" grinder. Use Sigma II 1000, 6000, 13000 stones for sharpening. Occasionally use dry leather strop. Use Veritas sharpening guide for main bevel. Hand sharpen micro bevels as needed during resharpening, even though I am not very good at it. Takes longer to mount the blade in guide, than it does to re-sharpen; that is why I started resharpening by hand?

I m out in Tucson, Az.
- Thorbjorn88
If we weren't under isolation orders, would offer to let you visit me in Phoenix and come play with some Veritas PM-11 for yourself. :)

Cheers!
 
#23 ·
Both campnay make excellent products, and I have tools from both. If you are used to the Stanley #4 that broke, maybe you want to stay with a similar sized #4 LN (the 4-1/2 is a whole different animal). I like the LV PM-V11 for blades, far better than A2. Without knowing your experience with handplanes, it ishard to ffer suggestions, just opinions!

It would wise to try differnt planes from different makers. You might want to post where you live, as you may have others near by, that will let you try theirs out.
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
There are woodworkers that can't figure out how to sharpen A2 but they can sharpen other steels just fine, really? I own vintage Stanley/Sargent/MF/Norris/Marples/Sorby, and newer, O1, A2, PMV11. I can't understand how someone could put a good edge on one of those steel types and not all the others.

I've never seen a reputable test of PMV11 vs A2 that wood justify the subjective term "far better". Most claim it stays sharper twice as long. Considering how long an A2 edge lasts most projects won't see the benefit. The biggest internet proponent of PMV11 gets his stuff for free from LV so consider that….
 
#25 ·
If we weren t under isolation orders, would offer to let you visit me in Phoenix and come play with some Veritas PM-11 for yourself. :)

- CaptainKlutz
Yeah if it weren't for the situation I'd take you up on that, thanks for the offer.

Thanks for all the input on this all, it's been helpful. I do think I'm going to go with the Veritas, partially because I have a few other Veritas planes so I know I like the handle and it'll look more at home in the plane till and I have no doubt it will be as good as I could want it to be. Then when I get the chance to try some LN planes if they blow me away enough that I want to switch, I doubt it will be hard to sell the Veritas.
 
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