LumberJocks

Some wood/adhesive tips/tricks - or errors?

  • Advertise with us

« back to Finishing forum

Forum topic by OleCuss posted 03-22-2020 01:38 PM 799 views 1 time favorited 31 replies Add to Favorites Watch
View OleCuss's profile

OleCuss

25 posts in 296 days


03-22-2020 01:38 PM

I’m not claiming to be an expert on this stuff. In fact, I’ll assert that I am most definitely not an expert in any aspect of woodworking but am rather a beginner/learner. This thread is not about asserting that the following is true but rather it is presented for critique.

I hope folk will correct my misconceptions.

1. I’m getting the idea that almost any glue will work OK for most purposes. I’m sort of settling into the idea that TiteBond III is probably a good general-purpose glue. Readily available even at the big-box stores and gives even a beginner (like me) the time to put most things together and clamp them into place.

2. I know that the longer open time means things don’t get tacky as rapidly and on some joints that can be a problem and things can move around a little. Salt sprinkled into the joint area seems to be able to fix that problem for some joints but I’m not sure that there may not be some weakening of the joint.

3. Pre-finishing can be considered but it is best to leave the joint area un-finished. Taping can help with that in some cases. Controlling squeeze-out may be a bother but painters’ tape can be used to keep that relatively easy to remove. If you aren’t simply wiping it up with a damp towel or sponge, then using the tape and letting the glue dry completely before peeling it off is best. Waxilit paste is also an option – wipe it onto the finish surface before gluing and then when glue is dry you peel it off and then use mineral spirits to remove the Waxilit.

4. There is a question about whether clamping most glues makes much of a difference. Testing seems to show that using clamps to compress the glued joint really does make a significant difference when tested but you might get by with no clamping pressure if you have little stress on the glued joint.

5. Epoxy is different. Epoxy tends to seep into the wood quite significantly. This means that if you clamp for pressure your joint will have so little of the epoxy adhesive after it seeps into the wood that you’ll have a dry joint and little strength. So for Epoxy you use clamping to position the joint/wood rather than to compress the joint. I frankly find this very intriguing and I’m thinking that I may be able to make joints which are very, very loose and use lots of colored epoxy in the joint in order to see if I can use the epoxy decoratively – not at all sure I can make that actually work well for many (maybe not even any) joints.

6. For oily (typically “exotic”?) woods, first prep the wood by wiping/cleansing with acetone. Poor adhesion otherwise.

7. Hide glue is very interesting. Open time is very short for the glue-pot type which can be good if you are confident of getting the joint put together quickly. Liquid hide glue may have a longer open time. Really cool that you can undo a joint by wetting it but I’d be worried about its use in humid climates. Interesting that you can apparently use hide glue on surfaces already treated/covered by hide glue.

8. Cyanoacrylates (CA glue) seems to me to be mostly useful for setting up an assembly rather than for long-term adhesion. A bit too brittle for most long-term purposes. Clever use of a mix of regular adhesives in some areas of an edge joint and then some CA in some portions of the joint to effectively act to maintain clamping pressure might be a good thing in some cases.

9. Cyanoacrylate is also a finish which is apparently liked by quite a few as a finish for projects on a lathe. With a quick-setting version you can set things turning on the lathe and wipe on one coat after another in rapid succession. I don’t know anything about the durability of such a finish and am concerned that it may not hold up on projects where there is somewhat rough use – but I just don’t actually know.

10. There are some really awesome adhesives which have great structural ability as well as a lack of delamination even with prolonged exposure to water/immersion. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to be an option for almost any but a very few woodworkers. They require a bunch of heat and pressure to activate and set-up and I think may be what they are using in applications such as the manufacture of plywood, MDF, OSB, etc.

11. Since few of us will be working with truly waterproof adhesives/glues we’d better get a good finish on the surfaces of our project if there is any chance of things getting wet/damp.

Now, I’d appreciate it if anyone would deign to tell me where I’ve got it wrong. I’m pretty sure there will be multiple errors as I am not at all the expert – just trying to research.

One other thing? I think I saw mention of a product which, if used prior to gluing might decrease the problems with wetting even with our fairly typical PVA woodworking glues. Darned if I can remember what it is and I admit to some uncertainty that it really exists.

Thank you for comments/corrections.


31 replies so far

View Rich's profile (online now)

Rich

6169 posts in 1509 days


#1 posted 03-22-2020 02:52 PM

You’ve really got 11 threads going on in one post.

1) Titebond II is less expensive and, unless you need the water resistance, just as good as III. I buy Titebond II with fluorescent dye added and use a $10 UV flashlight to locate any problems before they bite me. I wrote about it here.

2) This was discussed ad nauseam recently. I use pin nails and clip them just proud of the surface. Gives a good bite to prevent slippage.

7) Humidity has no effect on hide glue. If it did, every antique in Florida would be falling apart. You need moisture AND heat.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View splintergroup's profile

splintergroup

4152 posts in 2142 days


#2 posted 03-22-2020 03:10 PM

The wood whisperer has some short shows available on line and with amazon prime. He did a recent (season 13 I believe) show on glues with some good info. Basically for the PVAs he settled on TBIII. Best open time and more “woody” color when dried. Also works at a bit colder temperature. In the end he stated that there is a glue for almost any need, but limiting ones selection avoids less used glues from hitting their shelf life dates and compared to the money put into a project, glue (even TBIII) is dirt cheap.

(personally I have all three TB mixes but rarely use any other than the TBIII for hamate glue-ups and the “dark” TBII
for walnut. The original TB “yellow” gets used (used up) when I have mass-quantity needs.

View OleCuss's profile

OleCuss

25 posts in 296 days


#3 posted 03-22-2020 03:11 PM

Thank you. That is much appreciated.

And I do have a pin nailer!

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

6581 posts in 3413 days


#4 posted 03-22-2020 04:04 PM

Someone asked Titebond about using salt (#2) in a joint. Check this link.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View OleCuss's profile

OleCuss

25 posts in 296 days


#5 posted 03-22-2020 04:17 PM



Someone asked Titebond about using salt (#2) in a joint. Check this link.

- Fred Hargis

That’s a darned good argument against using the salt. This would tend to suggest the pin nailer is a better alternative or maybe even the sand which I read mentioned elsewhere in the forum. But one would need to be concerned about sand and/or nails if someone were likely to ever cut into the joint.

View Rich's profile (online now)

Rich

6169 posts in 1509 days


#6 posted 03-22-2020 04:28 PM


But one would need to be concerned about sand and/or nails if someone were likely to ever cut into the joint.

- OleCuss

You can cut through a pin nail without any damage to a blade. The main thing to concern yourself with is making a cut that exposes the pin. At that point you’d have been better off to just pin the boards together since the nailer will set the pin below the surface and it won’t show.

I’ve made the first mistake (exposing the pin). Fortunately one area I’m expert in is touch up and repair so it was just a minor annoyance.

Also, none of these things should be needed in 99% of glue ups. The only time I experience slipping is when gluing two large faces together. Ordinary joint and panel gluing is never a problem.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View OleCuss's profile

OleCuss

25 posts in 296 days


#7 posted 03-22-2020 06:19 PM

Thank you. Good perspective.

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

6581 posts in 3413 days


#8 posted 03-22-2020 07:14 PM

I missed this one: #3: If you aren’t simply wiping it up with a damp towel or sponge, then using the tape and letting the glue dry completely before peeling it off is best.

This is another approach I prefer: I let the squeeze out skin over (maybe 1/2 hour, depending on what glue it is) and then scrape it off. The damp sponge thing I’ve never liked…it just seems some of the moisture gets into the joint; plus, it often makes a “glue size” that gets spread over a wider area, making for more finishing headaches.

You didn’t address anything on the plastic resin glues (urea-formaldehyde) types. They are actually my favorite glue, and if it wasn’t for the inconvenience of preparing them…I’d use them on most everything. Once dry, they easily sanded…no clogs on the paper, just dust. They don’t “creep”, I always use this type on table top surfaces where creep can be more easily noticed. Lastly, they are strong and just as water resistant as TIII. But besides the prep being a pain, they also take a long clamp time. Then if you don’t prep enough (or too much) you do it again (or throw it away).

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View OleCuss's profile

OleCuss

25 posts in 296 days


#9 posted 03-22-2020 09:06 PM

Thank you for the info on the plastic resins. That could be very helpful!

View Pixxture's profile

Pixxture

48 posts in 991 days


#10 posted 03-23-2020 12:00 AM

The following link on LJ , posted by Holbs, has a link to a comparison of different glues. Covers the statement “..almost any glue…”. Don’t know how accurate it is but it is interesting. https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/308389.

View Foghorn's profile

Foghorn

687 posts in 306 days


#11 posted 03-23-2020 01:07 AM

Just a few comments from my experience as a luthier. I’ll add more if I have to. :)

Titebond 2 and 3 are great for some things including outdoor furniture. For stressed joints, like those on a guitar, it creeps over time. Titebond original creeps way less and is the preferred glue for stressed joints.

Hide glue essentially doesn’t creep and doesn’t succumb to “hot car syndrome” where if a guitar is subjected to high heat, things move. Titebond Original releases around 150F. Hot hide needs both heat and moisture to release. Titebond Original hide glue is not dependable and includes urea and other additives. Strongly discouraged for any stressed joints and completely fails to harden at the worst of times. Fish glue works well and has a very long open time so needs to be under clamps for at least 24 hours. High humidity will release but there are very few cases where this has happened outside of a flood event.

Wiping exotics with solvent is strongly discouraged in the knowledgeable luthier community. It actually brings “oils” to the surface. A fresh plane or scrape immediately or shortly before glueing works best. Even a light sanding is better than using a solvent.

CA is very strong but has lower shock resistance. It is used extensively by guitar builders for low stress joints such as binding. Jean Larivee, a very famous builder also used/uses it for joining oily woods such as cocobolo and other rosewoods for backs etc. Who am I to question a guy as famous as that.

In many cases at least for musical instruments, glues need to be reversible to allow replacement or tuning of parts. Titebond Original and Hot hide glue allow for this. Titebond 2 or 3 or polyurethane glues don’t. Epoxy for some things is OK as it will release at a marginally higher temperature than Titebond Original.

-- Darrel

View OleCuss's profile

OleCuss

25 posts in 296 days


#12 posted 03-23-2020 02:42 AM

Thanks. I’m getting to learn some good stuff!

Hide glue (glue pot-type) is starting to sound like a pretty amazing item.

View Rich's profile (online now)

Rich

6169 posts in 1509 days


#13 posted 03-23-2020 02:51 AM


Hide glue (glue pot-type) is starting to sound like a pretty amazing item.

- OleCuss

We have an expert on hide glue here on LJ. If you want to learn more check out his blog posts.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View OleCuss's profile

OleCuss

25 posts in 296 days


#14 posted 03-23-2020 10:10 AM

Much appreciated!

It looks like I’d have to talk my wife into letting me use the refrigerator for the pot. I’m not so sure that would happen. . .

But it looks like remarkable stuff. No creep appeals to me even though it may never be a real issue with what I’m likely to do. No real need for clamping is also very cool but for most of what I’d do I’d want to clamp for position anyway.

View Rich's profile (online now)

Rich

6169 posts in 1509 days


#15 posted 03-23-2020 04:26 PM


It looks like I d have to talk my wife into letting me use the refrigerator for the pot. I m not so sure that would happen. . .

- OleCuss

You can keep your glue in a mason jar and use the glue pot as a double boiler. Just set the mason jar in the glue pot, add water up to just past the level of the glue in the jar and plug it in. You can start with hot tap water to speed the process a bit. When you’re done, lightly tighten the lid on the jar and set it in the fridge. No odor and it just looks like a little jar of honey.

I have the Hold-Heet pot which is pretty much the standard. You can rig some substitutes using things like small slow cookers, but the Hold-Heet is well worth the investment. I did a blog post a while back about my technique for keeping glue ready to add to the jar when it runs low. You can read it here.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

showing 1 through 15 of 31 replies

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com