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Lichtenberg device safety wiring

5K views 55 replies 26 participants last post by  MSquared 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello this is my first post as I just signed up. I am going to be making a lichtenberg device for epoxy fractal burns and wanted some input. I am very aware of the danger of these devices and have been doing a lot of reading on how to make them safer as to not make my wife a widow. My idea is the common seen wiring through a switch with the light to let me know it is plugged in regardless if power is running through the device, the switch is for on/off to let the power pass through the switch, after that is where I want to add two momentary push buttons so that way both my hands have to be away from the probes as to not touch them (removing even one hand and the machine stops), and off course proper 15k gto wire on the out puts, heavy duty clamps, shrink wrap and proper connections anywhere electricity will be flowing. Any other input from anyone on here to make it safer or where my plan may be flawed. I also was debating on a step pedal but thinking the three points of safety is enough. Thank you in advance and can post pictures as it starts coming together.
 
#2 ·
I've been sitting on it more and more. I want to add a light bulb after the momentary relays to clearly show it is 100% live and as a extra reassurance that I can move the prongs with know worries. I also want to add a 15amp breaker but not sure where. I would like to add it after the relays so if it does start acting up its killed before it gets near my hands on said relay. Any thoughts
 
#4 ·
This is not something that I would do. It is too risky for me and my wife. If I was an electrician well versed in high voltage and had ALL the safety equipment, I would not do it. I certainly would not do it based on YouTube videos.

Sorry to be so negative but I do not believe you should do this.
 
#5 ·
This is not something that I would do. It is too risky for me and my wife. If I was an electrician well versed in high voltage and had ALL the safety equipment, I would not do it. I certainly would not do it based on YouTube videos.

Sorry to be so negative but I do not believe you should do this.
 
#7 ·
Not strictly based off YouTube it's just a good place to see as I am a visual learner, mixed with lots of reading, but also have experience with electricity but definitely not the 2k it should produce. I feel comfortable as I'll have 2 indicators of power, a on off, and two relays that force my hands to be occupied or no power, a fuse that'll kill power if it acts up, rubber electrical box for everything, incased in wood, and be around 9 feet away from the probes when there is power.
 
#9 ·
Do you know the ionization voltage for air? Bulk resistance of damp concrete? Air dried lumber? Wet lumber? Sappy lumber? Wet plywood? HS tubing is only good for 600v typ? Breakdown voltage of all your insulators? Have you figured your minimum body resistance for your voltage source to produce .005A across your chest? Run a 5kv HiPot tester for leakage paths that don't show on your little DVM?

No to any of the above? You don't know what you're doing.
 
#10 ·
yeah id listen to all giving their opinion here,is this something you feel losing your life is worth it.yeah it looks cool but your wife wont think so at your funeral.please reconsider but if you still feel the need at least consult with an electrician experienced with high voltage.good luck.hey if you never post again ill guess we will know how it went!
 
#12 ·
LJ already has several threads on the topic of fractal burning. Read them!

People die doing this:
https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/fractal-burning-kills-another-michigan

Fractal Burning is banned by American Association of Woodturners Safety Committee.

The actual electrical equipment for the process is simple and can be cheap.
Cost of proper protective equipment (PPE) far exceeds the cost of electrical bits. Proper voltage rated gloves run ~$200. Then you have the non-conductive work surfaces, clothes, face protection in case of arc fault.
Can easily spend $500+ to protect your self from $50 worth of electrical parts.

When I was young and invincible, I might have tried fractal burning. But after 30 years of industrial safety exposure, watching loss of life, and knowing 2 people who have permanent disabilities who survived after incidents with high voltage; will not attempt it.

IME - You need to get more than internet reading education to have proper high voltage training before you attempt fractal burning. You need professionally high voltage safety training!

Attempting the process without the PPE is asking to die. Just like holding a stick of dynamite while fuse burns, or running across a busy street with eyes closed, and hoping you survive the *********************************** stunt. Don't do fractal burning unless wearing PPE.

PS Suggest you show your family all the Lichtenberg device and fractal burning safety articles, and ask them:
Do I have your permission to die like this for my hobby?
Best Luck getting family permission.

Be safe, not Sorry.
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
Not strictly based off YouTube it s just a good place to see as I am a visual learner, mixed with lots of reading, but also have experience with electricity but definitely not the 2k it should produce. I feel comfortable as I ll have 2 indicators of power, a on off, and two relays that force my hands to be occupied or no power, a fuse that ll kill power if it acts up, rubber electrical box for everything, incased in wood, and be around 9 feet away from the probes when there is power.

- MBS1287
Set our minds at ease. Tell us about your experience with electricity.

On any forum when this comes up woodworkers say "it looks beautiful" and woodworkers who are also retired electrical workers say "you must be crazy!" There are hundreds of ways to beautify and embellish wood without risking death. Just pretend this way doesn't exist.

Do you know the ionization voltage for air? Bulk resistance of damp concrete? Air dried lumber? Wet lumber? Sappy lumber? Wet plywood? HS tubing is only good for 600v typ? Breakdown voltage of all your insulators? Have you figured your minimum body resistance for your voltage source to produce .005A across your chest? Run a 5kv HiPot tester for leakage paths that don t show on your little DVM?

No to any of the above? You don t know what you re doing.

- Madmark2
No to any of the above???

Buy a laser engraver and use it to burn a jpg of the fractal.
 
#14 ·
So is the biggest risk being electrocuted by the ends where the voltage is much higher? That seems like the biggest I see and why I wanted to add so many fail safes of keeping me far away from the propes and enclosing the MOT in wood. Any chance the MOT grenades?
 
#15 ·
And sorry lots of info being thrown at me which is why I came here. I doing wiring in apartment complexes so like I said some knowledge but definitely not a electrical engineer but my friends dad is a VERY good electrical engineer so I know i can pick his brain also
 
#16 ·
I do not have the technical expertise of the people giving you advice. But, I have been on this web site for quite a long while and I can tell you that those people know what they are talking about.

Believe me, they are not just screaming, "You'll shoot your eye out!"
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
And just to clarify just because one or I guess everyone is saying what in reality I dont want to hear doesnt mean I'll be upset or disregard. I know there is a whole lot of brain power on here and why I wanted to sign up.
...in that case let me add my voice to the ones saying it's not worth it. Just don't do it.

I don't have any first hand knowledge but fractal burning just isn't that cool. The only time I've ever seen, heard, or read anything about it is when somebody dies trying it. Not once have I ever seen a post, article, or comment with anything positive to say about it. Print it with a laser engraver sounds like a good idea if you insist on the visual.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
So is the biggest risk being electrocuted by the ends where the voltage is much higher? That seems like the biggest I see and why I wanted to add so many fail safes of keeping me far away from the propes and enclosing the MOT in wood. Any chance the MOT grenades?

And sorry lots of info being thrown at me which is why I came here. I doing wiring in apartment complexes so like I said some knowledge but definitely not a electrical engineer but my friends dad is a VERY good electrical engineer so I know i can pick his brain also

- MBS1287
Yes, the MOT could grenade, also the wood, also the wood table it is all sitting on top of.

Basic electric knowledge is helpful, sort of.
Think about path lightning takes during storm, it's not random, there is science to it. That is science you need to learn. What happens if sonic boom or an earthquake outside shakes the building, or you are Klutz and kick something; and the probes hit the floor while power is on?

As MadMark was trying to point out with his list of questions;
High Voltage involved exceeds what normal off the shelf components can tolerate, and you have worry about a whole new set of rules that are ignored in standard home power grid.
Things like:
- air quality (humidity and particle counts)
- separation distances between exposed electrodes
- insulation types and breakdown voltage ratings
- conduction paths
- fixtures and work holders
etc.

You need more than safe circuit with dead man switch, breakers, and lights. Need proper floor covering, table fixtures, gloves, clothing, face/eye protection. If you can avoid it, you don't want be in same room, or walking on same surface as the apparatus is using. You need to make sure your damp sack of conductive skin can never be in the HV conduction path, or you put yourself at an unacceptable risk.
There is no such thing as being too safe around high voltages.

The question is not can you do fractal burning, as any monkey with some wire and microwave oven parts can make one to burn wood. The internet proves that all the time.

The question is can you do it safe enough, that don't become another statistic for the insurance industry?

IMHO - very few folks are willing to invest the nearly $1000 required to 'play' with high voltage safely.

If you are one of the few with money, time and education, then read up, get the equipment, be safe, and best luck.

PS - If you need beneficiary for your will, I am available.
 
#25 ·
I know there is a whole lot of brain power on here and why I wanted to sign up.

- MBS1287

You are trusting brain power on an Internet Woodworking forum about high voltage?

Step back and really think about that for a moment.

- CWWoodworking
As I said earlier, hes' not trusting a woodworking forum about high voltage. He should be trusting info from professional electricians who also happen to be woodworkers.

I m experienced with 480/3ph equipment.
I ve seen what 277 (one leg of 480) does to a human body.
There s no way in hell I d consider playing with one of these lightning machines.

All I see is death when I see these fractal projects posted.

- Scap
 
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