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Veneer glue - why am I confused?

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Forum topic by Robert posted 08-19-2019 02:09 PM 562 views 0 times favorited 31 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Robert

3516 posts in 1960 days


08-19-2019 02:09 PM

Here’s the setup: I’m veneering some quilted veneer which was very dry and very brittle. There are splits or cracks in the swirly (non quilted) parts of the veneer. After using a veneer softener the panels were much more flexible and I was able to close the splits in the swirly parts of the wood by taping them together, which worked, but, I could tell there was stress in the panel because the panel wanted to curl.

I’ve used the hot iron method with PVA glue in the past and it has worked quite well for me.

Not so well in this case. I didn’t anticipate the cracks widening even more due to the heat from the iron. I was able to salvage the piece by matching filler and wax pencil, and it actually came out very well. But I need to make a matching table and am looking at a cold press method.

The top is app 12” X 24. My bottle of OBG is 2 years old and the bottle of TB Cold Press Veneer glue is also old.

The only glue I have I would for cold clamping is TB III. I also have some TB liquid hyde glue.

Do I need to make a trip to Woodcraft and get more cold press glue?

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!


31 replies so far

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GR8HUNTER

6369 posts in 1192 days


#1 posted 08-19-2019 02:47 PM

this is a question for Paul the king master of veneer :<))

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN

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Lazyman

3873 posts in 1867 days


#2 posted 08-19-2019 03:25 PM

As Paul (Shipwright) would probably tell you, I would have used traditional hot hide glue (not liquid hide glue like OBG or TB) for that. I have never tried the PVA and iron trick myself but I seem to recall in one of the demos I saw that they said it works best with nice smooth veneer and they recommended against figured and burl veneers. It is just too hard to get them to flatten evenly as you iron it down. I don’t remember whether they said anything about using veneer softener with the PVA iron technique.

With hot hide glue, the hot glue acts to soften the veneer making wavy, warped veneer easily flatten as you hammer it down, any cracks usually just disappear as long as there are no missing pieces. You do need some equipment to get started with hot hide glue but checkout Shipwrights blogs for tips on technique as well as some cheap alternatives like a coffee maker or a crockpot to heat the glue and even using a dulled carbide paint scraper as a veneer hammer. You do have to keep an eye on the temperature to make sure that the glue doesn’t get above 160 degrees though. For small batches of glue, I have actually used an empty plastic spice bottle sitting in heated water in a crockpot and I use an inexpensive chef’s thermometer for monitoring the temperature. Once you have hammered veneer with HHG, you might never use the more modern veneer methods.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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shipwright

8357 posts in 3278 days


#3 posted 08-19-2019 03:41 PM

My answer to your question would be yes but for OBG not cold press although both would work. I just prefer hide glues for this, especially with cracks that can allow glue through to block finishes on your show face.

You could use hot hide glue and hammer it but that requires a bigger learning curve and some equipment.
If you have kept your OBG in the fridge or freezer when not in use two years is not necessarily too long and you can always try a test glue-up. If it glues, it’s good. If it is gone it won’t glue.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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Rich

4813 posts in 1069 days


#4 posted 08-19-2019 08:57 PM

A quick way to judge protein glue is to put a dab on your finger tip and repeatedly tap it against your thumb. If it develops hairs pretty quickly, it’s probably OK. Like Paul said, you should still test it though. However, if it never starts to develop hairs, you can just toss it and not waste time testing.

-- There's no such thing as a careless electrician

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therealSteveN

3618 posts in 1054 days


#5 posted 08-19-2019 10:13 PM

I always thought OBG was Old Brown Glue, which is liquid hide glue in a bottle.

Hide glue, hammer veneered. To me, the easiest to learn, the simplest to do, and with hide glue 100% reversible if it comes to it. Paul outside of making a veneer hammer, what are you thinking a guy would need, that he probably doesn’t already have? Especially if he is using bottled glue. I always thought going the bag route, with special pumps, bags that you would be more spendy than any other type of veneering.

If you do veneer just once in a while, trying to keep glue may not end up being as cost effective, as buying, and or making in smaller quantities. Plus OBG is pretty steep compared to Franklin’s liquid hide glue, and tests I have read show no real difference in what happens after you use it. OBD 5oz, is around 9 bux, Franklins Titebond LHG is 8oz for 8 and change.

-- Think safe, be safe

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shipwright

8357 posts in 3278 days


#6 posted 08-19-2019 11:18 PM

Rich, because of its liquid state at room temp OBG isn’t as reliable in that test as I recall. The temperature of your fingers just keeps it liquid. It is the best test for hot hide glue however.

Steve, OBG is Old Brown Glue but you can’t hammer veneer with it. You can only hammer veneer with hot hide glue and that requires the pot, hammer, and some practice.
Probably the simplest and cheapest way for the OP to go is OBG with clamps and cauls.
The difference between the liquid hide glues is the gel temperature and OBG has less additives. I’m sure both work.
OBG will last two or three years if kept in the fridge, just about forever if frozen.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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Rich

4813 posts in 1069 days


#7 posted 08-20-2019 12:27 AM

Rich, because of its liquid state at room temp OBG isn’t as reliable in that test as I recall. The temperature of your fingers just keeps it liquid. It is the best test for hot hide glue however.

- shipwright

Are you trying to start a fight or something, Paul? (inside joke guys)

No, it works—at least with my homemade LHG—which, like OBG, consists of nothing but glue, water and urea. It takes longer and doesn’t produce the density of threads that HHG or fish glue do, but it does work. Another thing I’ve noticed is that when hide glue goes bad, its viscosity drops significantly. Of course, they can mold too, but that’s a pretty obvious sign it’s time for a fresh batch.

-- There's no such thing as a careless electrician

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shipwright

8357 posts in 3278 days


#8 posted 08-20-2019 02:18 AM

Interesting. I’ve actually never tried the test with LHG for the stated reason. Maybe I’ll give it a try
I think maybe I got it from Patrick.
Is your glue liquid at room temp?

I’d never start a fight with you.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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Rich

4813 posts in 1069 days


#9 posted 08-20-2019 03:39 AM


Interesting. I ve actually never tried the test with LHG for the stated reason. Maybe I ll give it a try

- shipwright

Let me know if it works. In the meantime, what ratio of glue to water do you use for your hot hide glue? By weight or volume?

-- There's no such thing as a careless electrician

View therealSteveN's profile

therealSteveN

3618 posts in 1054 days


#10 posted 08-20-2019 04:41 AM


Steve, OBG is Old Brown Glue but you can’t hammer veneer with it. You can only hammer veneer with hot hide glue and that requires the pot, hammer, and some practice.
Probably the simplest and cheapest way for the OP to go is OBG with clamps and cauls.
The difference between the liquid hide glues is the gel temperature and OBG has less additives. I’m sure both work.
OBG will last two or three years if kept in the fridge, just about forever if frozen.

- shipwright

The person who taught me to veneer only uses HHG, which is how I do it. I didn’t know the liquid hide glues wouldn’t work. Thinking about it I can see why though. I’ve read that Paul Sellers guy was going to hammer with the Titebond liquid hide, so I just figured it was doable.

I like the Franklin, liquid hide glue for it’s many great qualities, but to tell the truth, it smells better than OBG, and you don’t need to build a fire in the Winter months to use it. For rub joints I think PVA does a better job than the Franklin Hide glue though.

-- Think safe, be safe

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shipwright

8357 posts in 3278 days


#11 posted 08-20-2019 05:19 AM

Rich, I don’t measure. I cover the dry glue plus a little with water and cook it when hydrated. Once hot I adjust for consistency. It really doesn’t matter what ratio you start with as long as you get the right consistency before you use it. It is a constant process of adjustment after that, adding a little water when it gets too thick. Steve, neither PVA nor LHG is very good for rub joints. Again, that’s a HHG advantage.
You should get your facts straight.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

View Robert's profile

Robert

3516 posts in 1960 days


#12 posted 08-20-2019 11:13 AM

Thanks guys.

I’ll do a test with the OBG. Do I need to clamp?

As for the TB cold press veneer glue, can that be used with clamps and a caul or is it intended for vacuum bag?

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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splintergroup

2825 posts in 1702 days


#13 posted 08-20-2019 01:49 PM



Thanks guys.

As for the TB cold press veneer glue, can that be used with clamps and a caul or is it intended for vacuum bag?

- Robert


I use the CP glue for all my veneering so far and am satisfied with the results.
Clamps can only get you so far pressure wise, bagging it is the best solution if the part is larger than say a sheet of paper. Burl veneers need the extra pressure to maintain flatness while curing (two hours are what I use), To deal with any glue bleed through I place a double layer of paper towel between the wood face and (waxed) caul plates.
After removing from the press I’ll carefully use a scraper to remove the paper in areas with bleeding (while the glue is still soft).

Your panel is too large to properly press with clamps IMO so without a bag I’d yield to what the experts suggest for veneering methods without pressing.

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shipwright

8357 posts in 3278 days


#14 posted 08-20-2019 01:52 PM

OBG will do rub joints but to be sure for your test, use a clamp.
I don’t use TB but basically pressure is pressure. I have both a mechanical pressed vacuum. I prefer the mechanical one.

-- Paul M ..............the early bird may get the worm but it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese! http://thecanadianschooloffrenchmarquetry.com/

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Robert

3516 posts in 1960 days


#15 posted 08-20-2019 02:05 PM

Thought I’d post a few pics of what I’m dealing with.

Here is one of the cracks. I won’t use this panel but the two I did use had similar cracks. They matched up so well I wanted to give it a try.

Here is the first panel. With the hot iron, the seam and both cracks pulled apart. I also tore part of the edge when I tried to scrape the wax repair material off. Rookie mistake. The repairs are decent, but I’m going for something better. Fortunately I have about 8 more of these veneers.

One of the attempted repairs. I’m going to work on it some more, but it will be hard for me use it. I’m open to suggestions on the repair. I used some Famowood filler and followed with a wax pencil.

Anyone have an idea what wood it is?

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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