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Dust Collection re-design?

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Forum topic by TwoThumbBruce posted 08-04-2019 12:22 PM 651 views 0 times favorited 28 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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TwoThumbBruce

51 posts in 3497 days


08-04-2019 12:22 PM

Topic tags/keywords: dust collection dc dust deputy

I’m converting an old HF 2 HP dust collection system to one with a Super Dust Deputy cyclone and using a Powertec dust bag. The traditional way is to have the bag on top of the baffle and another bag or container attached below for the residue that may fall from the upper bag.

It occurred to me that because with the cyclone, the residue that accumulates in the bottom bag is next to nothing, why not put the Powertec bag on the BOTTOM of the baffle and seal the top of the baffle? Conceivably, this would filter and also retain the handful of residue that accumulates. If it works, it would save a lot of space.

What am I missing?

Bruce

-- Bruce, Florida


28 replies so far

View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

911 posts in 3274 days


#1 posted 08-04-2019 12:59 PM

For the system to work, you need to not only collect material, you must expel air. The pleated filters use a plastic bag because there is enough ares to let the air escape. My guess is if you have a good quality bag, you will trap the air and the system won’t flow enough volume to work the way you want. A cheap bag will let out air, but also the fines that are harmful. My DC had cheap bags, and it was more of a chip collector and dust creator. I have converted to a pleated filter.

View HackFabrication's profile

HackFabrication

155 posts in 192 days


#2 posted 08-04-2019 01:06 PM

I don’t see why that wouldn’t work for you. Try it and see how it performs.

Just a bit of info, the stock HF impeller should probably be upgraded, to the larger Rikon. You are going to loose a good bit of air flow passing through the SSD, which has a 5” inlet and 6” outlet.

Here’s a link to my HF mod'd DC

-- "In the end, it's all Hack..."

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

3877 posts in 1868 days


#3 posted 08-04-2019 01:17 PM

Some of the small 1 HP DC work the same way, where the filter bag is also the collection bag so it will work. You may not need the baffle at all with this approach. As ibewjon pointed out it could work for a while but the airflow will decrease as the filter fills up and clogs. It will also be pretty messy to empty the bag because any time you move the bag, dust will go everywhere. Filter bags tend to give out a puff of dust every time you touch them and when you turn them on too. I haven’t done this yet but I like the approach where they put the motor on top of the DD and then route the exhaust through a Wynn or a cheaper diesel truck filter and ditch the baffle and bag altogether With this approach, you have a relatively small, rigid collection cup or bucket at the bottom of the filter which makes it pretty easy to empty. It will take up less space as well. I am sure that you can find several examples of this approach on LJ and YouTube.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

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Michael Dow

11 posts in 2132 days


#4 posted 08-06-2019 11:09 AM

Many mods for the HF unit are available.. the smartest two are the dust deputy combined with a Wynn Environmental 13f230nano filter for the output. Get rid of the cloth bag! Also, smart duct design and implementation will increase the performance.

All things considered, however, the money spent on making the HF unit work (DC, dust deputy, filter, impeller) will add up the the cost of a true 2 stage unit that will work as intended from the start — all you have to do is comb craigslist for a bit. I upgraded my HF unit to a Grizzly G0440 for $600 on Craigslist and could not believe the difference.

-- -Michael Dow, Houston, TX.

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Kelly

2416 posts in 3425 days


#5 posted 08-06-2019 10:52 PM

A lot of systems come with cloth upper and lower bags, but most of us swap them out for finer collection and for disposable plastic bags. As such, we are cutting the system down to one bag, which seems to work fine for us.

I suspect your room saving plan would work. I just like to see what the bag or canister is doing, even though I have a cyclone in front of it. Light things, like insulation, cloths and paper prefer the collection bag over the cyclone. They’re just too light to spin out (there might be a bit of experience speaking there).

All the above aside, I see no reason it wouldn’t work. BUT HOWEVER BUT HOWEVER——

When I beat my three bags down or clean my two cartridges down to knock the dust loose from them, it falls on to the diverter plate (or whatever it’s called) in the center of the hole above the lower bag. When I start the unit again, it does not run any better, UNLESS I shake the unit enough to fall down into the lower collection area. This is because the stuff on the plate is drawn right back up into the filters.

By shaking the monsters, I can see a lot of dust fall off the plate and into the clear bags. Then, when I start the unit again, I notice a huge difference between suction when I don’t shake the unit.

From the foregoing, it is obvious no amount of beating the bag or shaking the unit is going to knock stuff off the bag and allow more air flow.

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TwoThumbBruce

51 posts in 3497 days


#6 posted 08-06-2019 11:34 PM

Guys,

I’m learning, I’m learning, however slowly… Thanks for all your input. Let me share some of the things I’ve learned and some of the decisions I’ve made and why…

I found a really nice and concise setup from Victor at Modern and Mint (https://www.etsy.com/listing/683808679/modern-and-mint-dust-collection-plans?ref=shop_home_active_1&crt=1) and his $10 plans were extremely worth it. Just a well thought-out system that works and only has a 33”X22” footprint. Inquiring wanted to tweak it and I came up with the following changes. Victor was very helpful and I also got great advice from Todd Clippinger of LJ.

I debated Thiel baffles, cyclones, filters, bags and at this moment (subject to change!!) I’ve decided to spring for a good .5 micron filter, and upgrade to the 12” impeller.

Not without problems (or “issues”, shall I say?)

I had ordered a Powertec 1 micron bag but found that it’s the tiniest particles that do the most damage. Further, emptying the bag causes a LOT of dust – which somebody is going to inhale (i.e., me). I asked my wife if $250 was too much for a filter. Response – “How much does emphysema. cost?” I guess that was an OK to buy and I didn’t ask any more questions. I getting the Wynn 13R230NANO.

Also opted for the 12” impeller from Rikon. I’m told it provides 20% more airflow and I guess that’s good. Then I found that the HD motor says it’s 20 amps, even though it works OK on the 15 amp circuit. Seems that the impeller is going to goose the amps and I may have to juggle things, put back the smaller impeller, or install new wiring.

Also found out that removing the old impeller is a snap… if you have a puller. Back to Amazon and $10 later a puller is on the way. I spent hours trying to get the old impeller off and I have more than a few tricks up my sleeve… so, $10 well spent. And free shipping!

Opted for a nice, new, 30-gallon drum with locking top. Instead of the 20-gallon. Has to be airtight and all that and the 55 gallon steel barrel I bought was too big. the 35 plastic barrel I got from the car-wash was prefect except that it didn’t have a removable to and I butchered it trying to cut the top off.

There was more and this means over a week of work, wasted money, lots of sweat, and no closer to completion. This is what led me to just throw $$ at it, remind myself that the clock is ticking, and so goodies are arriving and we shall see some results soon.

More to come!

-- Bruce, Florida

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ibewjon

911 posts in 3274 days


#7 posted 08-06-2019 11:49 PM

All that time and $$$$, and even more $$$ if you value your time, is why I tell everyone to buy a better machine and skip the HF upgrade.

View HackFabrication's profile

HackFabrication

155 posts in 192 days


#8 posted 08-07-2019 01:07 AM


All that time and $$$$, and even more $$$ if you value your time, is why I tell everyone to buy a better machine and skip the HF upgrade.

- ibewjon


I have to agree with this. Unless you enjoy ‘tinkering’ with stuff, your money is better spent buying a bigger/better machine. And like I replied earlier, I did all those mods to my HF DC, so I know the cost involved.

You will need to run the hopped up HF DC on it’s own circuit. I would highly suggest a dedicated 20 amp circuit. Which is what I installed for mine.

-- "In the end, it's all Hack..."

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2416 posts in 3425 days


#9 posted 08-07-2019 01:36 AM

You will note the difference between the cartridge filter and a bag very quickly. I have two identical, three horse, “four bag” systems” in addition to your HF one like yours, so I get to feel the difference regularly.

Another upgrade is, buy a five dollar roll of the self adhesive foam used between campers and the bed of a pickup. Use this between the bottom bag and the collector. It’ll snuff it up a bit.

All my ramblings aside, like Hack and others said, and if you can afford it [and the space], upgrade via craigslist or do the cash outlay for new. Once you get over the buyers remorse, you’ll never go back. After jumping from a Chinese collector I bought at a garage sale eons ago [but which was life changing, in the way a dust pump can be life changing], then working my way up the collector chain [to a commercial cyclone], you’ll love it. Too, you’ll laugh at shop vacs, when it’s time to vacuum the floor.

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Kelly

2416 posts in 3425 days


#10 posted 08-07-2019 01:46 AM

Oh, and if you go with the plans, add a SIDE view port, plan on using plastic bags and make a cage to hold the bags. That drum is going till up a lot faster than you think and, when it does, it all goes into your filter.


View farmfromkansas's profile

farmfromkansas

120 posts in 95 days


#11 posted 08-13-2019 02:06 AM

Running your barrel over is the biggest pain, as it fills your filter with sawdust, I hang a trouble light on mine so I can see when the barrel is approaching full. Of course, I have a flex hose between cyclone and barrel, so hang the light there on back side of the hose, so when it goes dark it is time to empty the barrel. Amazing how quickly it fills when using the planer.

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2416 posts in 3425 days


#12 posted 08-13-2019 04:43 AM

Steal your neighbors monitor and tear it apart. The plastic over the screen is gold to people like us, if you know it’s there. It’s not thin garbage.

I cut an elongated hole and covered it with plexi and, even with a cage to hold bags in place, I can see how full the can is quite clearly. See the above photo. It really works.


Running your barrel over is the biggest pain, as it fills your filter with sawdust, I hang a trouble light on mine so I can see when the barrel is approaching full. Of course, I have a flex hose between cyclone and barrel, so hang the light there on back side of the hose, so when it goes dark it is time to empty the barrel. Amazing how quickly it fills when using the planer.

- farmfromkansas

View TwoThumbBruce's profile

TwoThumbBruce

51 posts in 3497 days


#13 posted 08-13-2019 07:26 AM

I got an 8×10 piece of plexiglass at HD for $10, will heat it up, curve it, and hopefully, when it cools it will keep it’s shape, and then secure inside the barrel. I’ll make a small and thin hole, perhaps 1”x5”, so as not to weaken the barrel. Still debating with myself how to secure inside the barrel. Silicone for sure, but if it’s not keeping a curved shape it needs to be held in place. Need smooth fasteners on both sides. Pop rivets? Barrel is made of a hard cardboard.

Why is a cage needed to hold the bag in place? I plan to use contractor bags and top of bag will stick out at the top and the lid and ring will hold it in place. I hope…

-- Bruce, Florida

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TwoThumbBruce

51 posts in 3497 days


#14 posted 08-13-2019 07:29 AM

How big a barrel/canister do you guys use? I have a 30-gallon commercial food drum. Also have a 55-gallon steel drum, but it looks too big.

-- Bruce, Florida

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2416 posts in 3425 days


#15 posted 08-13-2019 09:12 AM

Bruce, note the size of my view port. It hasn’t weakened the barrel, and it’s large enough to see through easily, even with the plastic bags and cage.

The cage keeps the bag from going through strange gyrations that could cause it to limit what you can put in the barrel. Mine is from fence material I used to make tomato cages. They fit well enough they hold the bag near the walls.

I think you’d need it even with the heavy bags we normally use.

A little wiggling and a tug and the cages come right out. Then I twist the bag top, lay the barrel on its side and the bag and sawdust flow out.

A bigger barrel just means more time between changes, and a little tougher changes. Try it out, you may find yourself happy with it.

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