I'm staining an oak table and the chair seats with an oil based stain. After sanding the old stain and varnish off I stained only to see squiggles from the palm sander so I removed the stain by sanding again to remove the squiggles with 220 grit, I unfortunately put water on part of the table top to check to see that I had removed all squiggles, ( not realizing that it would raise the grain) after it dried I applied the stain again and to my horror, there were dark spots were I put the water.
What do I do now??
Can I resand to remove the raised grain and then restain? Please help!
Yes… Raise the grain and sand but be patient with your orbital sander (slow movements). Then use a steel wool or a 150 to go with the grain and then 320 if it needs it. The "squiggles" are the result of moving your sander around too fast.
Don't use steel wool on oak. You will get little bits of wool in the grain and the tannins in the oak will react with the steel and cause blackish blue streaks in the wood.
For future reference, dyes are more forgiving. This is because they do not contain pigments (solids) that settle into crevasses like wood grain and sanding scratches. Properly applied, they give the wood a smooth, even color without enhancing any of the grain, or showing up sanding scratches.
You'll want to read up on what's unique about using dyes and correct application techniques, but in the long run it's worth it. I use dyes almost exclusively.
For future reference, dyes are more forgiving. This is because they do not contain pigments (solids) that settle into crevasses like wood grain and sanding scratches. Properly applied, they give the wood a smooth, even color without enhancing any of the grain, or showing up sanding scratches.
You ll want to read up on what s unique about using dyes and correct application techniques, but in the long run it s worth it. I use dyes almost exclusively.
I'm curious if the OP sanded the old finish off enough for dye to work? I don't have experience with dye, but it seems regular stain has trouble over previous finishes that still remain in the wood from just sanding. Unless you chemical strip and or plane to raw wood.
I'm curious if the OP sanded the old finish off enough for dye to work? I don't have experience with dye, but it seems regular stain has trouble over previous finishes that still remain in the wood from just sanding. Unless you chemical strip and or plane to raw wood.
Dye does need a surface it can penetrate. Since it lacks solids, trying to apply it to any surface with a film finish isn't going to work. So yes, it's good that you brought that up. Dye is best applied to raw wood.
Even for stain, I'd recommend a clean surface free of any film finish. Even though it contains pigments, trying to apply it over a partially cleaned surface is sketchy. For that, you may as well paint it, or glaze it if you want to go for a special effect.
Are you using a straight orbital or a random orbital sander? I was having the swirl issue so picked up an inexpensive 5/6" random orbital for about $50. It's a night and day difference in the amount of hand sanding I have to do, though I always finish with 220 or sometimes 400 by hand. Ilove seeing the glare and feeling the silky smoothness of wood prior to stain/oil application.
Before you stain, you can wet with mineral spirits to check for scratches (well ventillated), also, use a work light to go over the piece from different angles.
HF has a nice little light that they give away sometimes or sell for a couple bucks, that works well too.
Horus is right, the random orbital sanders are far better than the orbital sander. They cut quickly without the swril that you get with an orbital sander. I got talked into an orbital sander in the 1980s and couldn't get the swrils out unless I did a lot of hand sanding.
One further word of advise, after you are done going through all the grits with your sander, hand sand with the final grit, usually 220 grit. Then wipe the dust off with a rag wet with mineral spirits. Besides removing the dust any swirl marks will show up and tell you if you need to do more hand sanding.
I really hate to see orbital sanders so unfairly criticized. I have two 1/4 sheet, a 1/3 sheet and 1/2 sheet orbitals that I use regularly. I also have five or six 5" ROS and a 6" dual-action sander/polisher. Oh, and my trusty old Fein. They all get used one time or another as the situation calls for.
Here's the deal, swirls are swirls. I don't care what shape they are, they're there, and if you plan on doing certain finishes like stain, Danish oil or any non-film finish, you'd better follow Bondo's advice and hand sand with the grain to make sure they're gone, otherwise you'll regret it later. You will never achieve a perfect finish with any orbital sander, random or otherwise. If you have a large compressor and some money to spend, you can get an in-line pneumatic sander that will do the same thing.
If you're using dye or leaving the wood uncolored like I do most of the time, and topping with a film finish, it's a different story. Then it comes down to the level of solids in your finish and how you treat each coat. Basically, once you get down to something like 400 grit sanding lacquer before spraying the final coat, it doesn't matter what pattern you sand at. Between the solids in the lacquer and its amalgamation properties, you will get a flawless finish if you know what you're doing.
You can have my orbital sanders when you pry them from my cold dead hands…lol
P.S. If you are going to have only one sander then, yes, go for a really nice ROS.
Today, I tried sanding by hand to remove the dark spots on my table only to find that the stain wasn't fully dried. My sandpaper was all gunked up. It was several days ago since I stained it so really surprised that it wasn't fully dried!
The weather here in IL has been rainy and cold and it's in my unheated garage so that obviously is why!
How long do you have to wait for it to dry under those conditions?
Get some air moving in there. Not directly on the wood, just moving all around it.
I'm assuming you used minwax or the equivalent? If so, next time try Sherwin Williams BAC wiping stain. Dries in an hour or less. Can be tinted to almost any color.
I'll try Sherwin Williams next time! I love their paint, I use it for cabinets and it does a beautiful job.
Thank you for all the advice everyone, I'm new to staining and I'm struggling with it.
I'm doing a dining room table and 6 chairs and the stain on the chairs appears to be somewhat darker on some. Aren't they supposed to all be the same? I tend to be a perfectionist and I may be overthinking it.
You took on a big project for your intro to staining…
Nothing says the table and chairs need to be stained the same, it's common but not required; some people do this intentionally ie dark chairs with a lighter table. It's personal preference. I like that look myself.
There is also natural variation in wood of the same species and within the same board for some species. Some ash trees are very light in the sap wood and dark in the heart wood.
One way to overcome this variation is to use dark stains to achieve a more uniform look. Maybe a finishing expert has some better ideas?
Horus, I've done three other dining room sets but they were $25 at a garage sale. This is for a customer and it's a nice oak set so I'm really nervous and I want it to turn out perfectly. Thank you for the advice.
When I'm working with oil based stains I always use Minwax Pre-stain wood conditioner. Especially when I'm refinishing an older piece or working with older reclaimed woods. You never know what the wood has been thru. The conditioner does a really good job of evening out the stain.
Here are a couple chalkboard box frames I made from some reclaimed heart pine. This was the second time its been reclaimed so I have no idea how old it is. First it came from a factory that was torn down, then re-sawed with new tongue and groove to be used in my great aunt's house built around 1928. That fell into disrepair so my dad and i were asked to tear it down and in the process hauled away all the flooring we could salvage
I'm no expert in finishing but have done a dozen or so older pieces that were stripped, sanded and stained. One was an old antique oak table that had been left outside at the Lake of the Ozarks for 3 yrs. I swear by the wood conditioner. I wipe a thin coat on with a lint free rag…old t-shirts work great…and then apply my first coat of stain.
Cool story about your chalkboard box frames! Very nice also!
Yeah, I should have used wood conditioner. I'm learning everything "not to do"!!! Lol
Thanks for the tip.
I'm sanding my table to remove the stain and all this gunk is coming off on my sanding block. I stained this a week ago. Does this mean that the stain is still not fully dry? Help!
Bob Flexner's books vary in their depth. His Understanding Wood Finishing book is a good one when you have some experience under your belt because you'll start to understand why things you're seeing are happening. His Wood Finishing 101 is perfect for the beginner since it's a step-by-step how-to guide that breaks everything down and assumes you know nothing. Flexner on Finishing is a compilation of his Popular Woodworking articles over the years and is full of useful material.
Some other outstanding books that focus on practical how-to information are:
Foolproof Wood Finishing, by Teri Masaschi
Great Wood Finishes and Finishing, both by Jeff Jewitt
The Art of Classical Furniture Finishing by Tim Inman
There are plenty of others, but these stand out. I have them all, have read them cover-to-cover and still learn something new every time I go back to them.
On a flat surface and removing finish I would use a scraper. It should be faster ,easier and less messy than sanding.
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