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Forum topic by jta posted 04-25-2019 12:44 AM 364 views 0 times favorited 19 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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jta

29 posts in 247 days


04-25-2019 12:44 AM

Topic tags/keywords: bandsaw planer jointer dust collection electrical question

I’ve been spending my winter organizing the garage to get it ready to actually get into some bigger projects, while refinishing a teak outdoor set and a Cherry dining table on the side. Now that we’ve hit spring (its MI, and the garage isn’t fully insulated), I’m working on getting the electrician in to do an install of 220V outlets so I can actually use my jointer (G0500) and bandsaw (G0513X2). Other tools currently are a Dewalt 735X, 10” Mitre Saw, and then mostly hand tools (Router, Sander, Jigsaw). Looking for advice on the planned electrical setup and advice on a reasonable dust collector.

The original wiring to the garage is a nightmare, and hence I’m planning to have him run a sub-panel off the main panel (curiously instead of setting things so that the primary panel was near the main cutoff in the garage, they ran it all the way to the furnace room – so now we have to run the cable back for the sub-panel back in the garage). Its a 200 amp panel, and the sub panel will probably be around 50-60AMPs drawn off, but not planning to run more than one tool and a DC at a time.
The G0513X2 requires 9.5amp draw at 220V – recommended 15amp breaker
The G0500 requires a 12amp draw at 220V – recommended 15amp breaker.
The Dewalt requires a 15amp draw at 120V – So I’m guessing maybe a 15 amp breaker?
Other tools would probably be fine on the 15amp 120 as well.
Dust Collector with its own circuit – most seem to have a 20amp so I’m guessing that would work?

Breaking it down I’m thinking the following circuits:
15 amp 220V – quick switchable for the bandsaw and jointer.
15 amp 120V – one or two of these to handle the smaller tools.
20 amp 220V – for a dust collector.

Possible additions to the shop in the future include a drill press and maybe some sort of drum sander (I and the wife have a thing for figure and things that would be suited to this type of approach). I’m not a table saw fan, so at this stage have no intention of adding one. Anyone have any modifications/suggestions beyond the above? Its not going to be a cheap option (~1k), but seems to be the best approach and is within my budget expectations (I expected at least $800 before I had to worry about a panel).

In terms of dust collector, I’ll admit I’m pretty clueless despite reading around. While my original plans could have probably got away with a vacuum/mini cyclone setup (and this will still suffice for the smaller tools), I’m finding myself a little out of my depth on what the DC needs would be with these tools. The outputs for the various tools are of course 4” – so I’m guessing something in the 1.5HP to 2HP range would be a decent option? Is that going to be workable on my electrical plan? Any recommendations of the sort of model I should be looking for?

(Oh and as a side note – got some beautiful hard maple today so rather excited to get things in place).


19 replies so far

View Carlos510's profile

Carlos510

270 posts in 734 days


#1 posted 04-25-2019 02:06 AM

I think you have planned quiet well JTA. Two 15 amp 120 circuits should easily handle all of your smaller machines and tools, don’t be cheap with the outlets, an outlet close by means your not tripping over cords. I would add one more 20 amp 220 V outlet. The DC will use the one you have now but if you have a jointer you will eventually want a planer, unless you go with a bench top planer you will need one more 20A-220V.

For a DC, 2 hp minimum would do, for what you have. If you eventually decide on a 15” or larger planer you may want to go with 3 hp that circuit will still handle that.

-- "If time is money, then I need a loan" , http://www.hobbyworkshopprojects.blogspot.com/

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jta

29 posts in 247 days


#2 posted 04-25-2019 02:42 AM

Thanks Carlos. So I have the Dewalt 735 Planer – 13” bench top – at this stage I feel pretty happy with that (if I’m doing more than 13” wide i’d probably just get them to do it at the local mill), and it runs off the 120V so I think I’m covered.

So as long as I’m not drawing more than the circuit amperage at any one time I could have several outlets off the same circuit right? E.g. given that I’d never want to run the jointer and bandsaw at the same time I can run both those off a 15 AMP single circuit with two outlets (at whatever spec they require)? Same with the 15AMP 120V for smaller tools (I’m basically envisaging several points along the same wall as part of my design as I have to share with a car.)

I’m assuming off a 2HP I can run a couple of 4” intakes (most seem to have a 6” that can take alternative a bi-pipe 4”), and can probably set up a blast gate type system to handle switching? Anyone have suggestions in that range of size. Given its a garage attached to a house, probably want to err on the side of caution for finer stuff.

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Carlos510

270 posts in 734 days


#3 posted 04-25-2019 03:08 AM

Sorry about that TJA missed you had the DeWalt planer. So yes I think your good on circuits for a garage sized shop. As long as you don’t turn on two 8A or larger tools on the same 120V circuit it won’t be a problem. Since you have two 120 circuits one trick is to run both circuits around the garage and with every outlet installed on one circuit, install another outlet on the other circuit close by. You can then power two machines or tools at the same time and always have separate circuits to plug into near by. The cost maybe an extra $30 in wire.

My wood shop is 22 X 20 I have 4” servicing every large machine, gates at each machine, and a remote DC starter. I have two hose connections that I can move around to were their needed, I get good suction at all connections. The piping distribution is all metal. There is a grounding wire jumping all plastic fittings and grounding the hose extensions. A dust explosion is something you want to avoid.

-- "If time is money, then I need a loan" , http://www.hobbyworkshopprojects.blogspot.com/

View HackFabrication's profile

HackFabrication

126 posts in 73 days


#4 posted 04-25-2019 08:21 AM

I had my garage wired a number of years ago with a 100a sub-panel. I have two 220v circuits: Air compressor and an additional 30a one for a welder. There is expansion for more, if needed. Which makes using a sub-panel desirable, and a good decision. My main panel is in the basement, almost at the opposite end of the garage, so it took a fair amount of wire to span the ‘gap’ from the main to the sub panels. However, my woodworking machines are all in my basement, so I had a number of dedicated 20a outlets run down there too. Which necessitated upgrading the main breaker panel, as the original one was max’d out for additional circuits.

As far as outlets: I would have everything wired to 20a. It’s the difference in price between running 14-2 and 12-2. And that’s not much. If you’ve got a standard 2 or 2 1/2 car garage, get a minimum of 3 outlets on each wall. You can’t have enough outlets. I’d also recommend that a couple of outlets be wired either on the wall by the garage door, or close to the garage door.

Now’s a good time to upgrade your garage lighting. When I did mine, LED shop lights weren’t an option. I have four 8’ fluorescent fixtures suspended from my ceiling (ceiling is drywalled). They provide great light compared to the single 200w bulb I had.

I just completed wiring a dedicated 20a circuit to my dust collector. It’s a Harbor Freight 2hp unit that has a Rikon 12” impeller. It draws 12.5a when running, which is ‘slightly’ above the recommended 80% drawn on a 15a circuit. No problems with it running on it’s own 20a circuit.

Where in Michigan? I’m in Canton, so if you want to stop by and get some ideas, let me know.

-- "In the end, it's all Hack..."

View clagwell's profile

clagwell

19 posts in 154 days


#5 posted 04-25-2019 10:36 AM

That “cutoff switch” in your garage is most likely your “Service Entrance”. That is, it’s the first termination inside the structure after the meter. If so, that makes the panel in your furnace room technically a subpanel. The switch itself will be a 200A main breaker.

This means you don’t have to make a run all the way to the furnace room panel. In fact, you really shouldn’t. Your new shop panel can connect to the load side of the Service Entrance just like the other panel. You’ll have better voltage regulation and it should cost less.

Use a 100A main breaker panel for your shop panel. Bring able to shut off the whole panel locally is convenient. 100A main panels are high volume competitive items and usually sell for less than subpanels.

All of your general purpose circuits really should be 20A. I would suggest at least two of those in case you want to run a shopvac at the same time as a tool. A separate 20A for your compressor of course. You can put multiple receptacles on a 240V circuit, just like 120V. I would run a 30A circuit for the Dust Collector to allow for future upgrade, and, depending on your breakers, you might need that anyway to avoid nuisance tripping on startup.

Add another circuit for new lighting but, if it’s an attached garage, leave the original lighting circuit there too. That way you have lights even when the panel is shut off.

-- Dave, Tippecanoe County, IN

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5507 posts in 2855 days


#6 posted 04-25-2019 10:50 AM

This was mentioned somewhere above, but there is little reason to install 15 amp circuits (either 240V or 120V). The increased cost of 20 amps is next to nothing and gives you adequate power for any tools up to 3 HP or so. That goes for the subpanel as well. 100 amps doesn’t really cost much more than a 60 amp panel…although 60 amps is almost certainly enough for most stuff. Lastly, don’t judge DC needs by the size of the ports on the tools, But that’s a different conversation.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View jta's profile

jta

29 posts in 247 days


#7 posted 04-25-2019 11:43 AM

HackFabrication –
Thanks for the suggestions. I’m up in Mt Pleasant, so a ways away unfortunately. I do have to consider additional lighting as the lights that are in there aren’t sufficient atm. As the drywall for the roof isn’t finished (and I’ve yet to have a look in the walls) thats something else I have to think about. Seems like after several suggestions that 20A/30A circuits are a better idea.

Clagwell -
Thanks for the suggestion. Can you think of any reason why the electrician would have tried to suggest the subpanel option, rather than wiring in at the main breaker (I haven’t had any problems with him in the past and he’s been reasonable). Costing less is definitely preferable, and that would allow me to be a little more generous with circuits on a 100A panel. Thinking on that basis of something like: 2×20A 240V (1 main tools, 1 spare for AC/alt options)/ 3×20A 120V (1 for lighting, 2 separates for tools) / 1×30A 240V (DC). Was planning to go with a conduit wiring approach to avoid having to go in the walls unnecessarily and having to screw with insulation.

Fred -
Thanks for reiterating that, its rather confusing out there as some folks say don’t, others say definitely do.

In terms of the DC – thanks for mentioning this. As someone who works on fluid dynamics I’m aware of that gross simplification and error of that statement, should’ve been less blasé. I realize it more comes down to output of the tool, length of run, nature of the hookup line, etc. Plan is to keep any necessary run to less than 4-5 meters. Just trying to get a feel of what others have found successful.

View clagwell's profile

clagwell

19 posts in 154 days


#8 posted 04-25-2019 12:15 PM



Clagwell -... Can you think of any reason why the electrician would have tried to suggest the subpanel option, rather than wiring in at the main breaker (I haven t had any problems with him in the past and he s been reasonable)...

Sure, lots of reasons! I made assumptions based on your description but someone who’s actually had an eyeball on the situation will know more than I do.

One likely possibility is that there’s not enough room in the disconnect enclosure to double lug the breaker and the feed to the existing panel is run such that you can’t really bring it out for a junction in another box.

Another reason could be that local impletations or interpretations of the code might disallow it somehow.

It probably wouldn’t hurt to ask your electrician even though that wasn’t his first suggestion.

Regardless of which way you run the feed you can still use the 100A main panel. You get plenty of breaker slots as well as local disconnection that way.

-- Dave, Tippecanoe County, IN

View HackFabrication's profile

HackFabrication

126 posts in 73 days


#9 posted 04-25-2019 12:22 PM

All the add-on wiring ‘upgrades’ I had done were in metal conduit secured to the walls. Here’s a pic of one wall in my basement (if you can look around all the stuff…):

Another of the dedicated 20a circuit I wired for the DC:

-- "In the end, it's all Hack..."

View Robert's profile

Robert

3371 posts in 1842 days


#10 posted 04-25-2019 01:30 PM

Sounds like you’ve got it dialed in. Glad to see you using an electrician.

I agree with Hank re: #12 wire & conduit.

I surface mounted everything with either conduit or armor flex. Sheathing walls much easier!! Big advantage is altering/adding to a adding a totally new circuit. Yes it will cost a bit more, but you’re electrician will also only have to come out once.

As far as your 220 machines, I have all mine on one circuit I’ve even run them simultaenously and never tripped the breaker (20A). Anything 4HP or above needs its own circuit.

Another suggestion is to wire each half of the outlets to a different 120v circuit. This is easily done when using conduit just run 2 hots.

This way, you can have a shop vac plugged into the same outlet as, say your miter saw and they will run off different circuits. I know with mine, it will trip when I start the saw.

The other thing to think about is lights. Ground up, no doubt LED is the only way to go. Again, leave yourself some flexibility by adding a ceiling outlet here and there in case you find you need some task lighting.

DC – without knowing more about your set up hard to advise. Generally speaking 2HP will suffice for a small shop and runs under 20’. Use 6” ducts for mains.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View PPK's profile

PPK

1370 posts in 1171 days


#11 posted 04-25-2019 04:52 PM

Go 20 amp on your 110 volt circuits. A lot of shop tools do much better on a 20 amp than a 15 amp.

I’d also personally put a 30amp 220v circuit in. That would handle a 3hp up to 5hp air compressor if you ever went that route.

-- Pete

View Sparks500's profile

Sparks500

253 posts in 692 days


#12 posted 04-25-2019 05:09 PM

(Another suggestion is to wire each half of the outlets to a different 120v circuit. This is easily done when using conduit just run 2 hots.)

This^ is how mine are. Some are double duplex with each on a different circuit. Never tripped one yet.

-- A good day is any day that you're alive....

View Carlos510's profile

Carlos510

270 posts in 734 days


#13 posted 04-25-2019 05:17 PM

The problem with running with over sized circuits, your electrician may bring this up, is that tools and motors without internal overload protection will burn out long before your breaker trips. Modern breakers all have built in time delays so a 1 HP motor that draws twice it’s running current on start-up will not trip your breaker, 1 1/2 hp or larger require either a 20 A circuit or go with a 220 V circuit. A 220 V circuit is better for motors this size.

-- "If time is money, then I need a loan" , http://www.hobbyworkshopprojects.blogspot.com/

View jonah's profile

jonah

2068 posts in 3660 days


#14 posted 04-25-2019 07:48 PM

There’s no reason to run a 60A sub panel when the material cost difference for a 100A one is fairly minimal. It’s thicker wire, but the labor is the same, and the panel itself is about the same cost.

I’d run a 100A sub panel, two 240V circuits and 3-4 120V ones. One 120V circuit for lights and 2-3 for tools. One 240V for tools and one for the dust collector.

View ibewjon's profile

ibewjon

370 posts in 3155 days


#15 posted 04-25-2019 09:29 PM

The breakers are to protect the wiring, not the device. All machines except hand tools should have either a manual starter with overloads or a magnetic starter with overloads to protect the motors. And all 120 v receptacles must be ground fault protected, which stops the idea of two circuts on a receptacle. NEC article 210.8 (A)(2) garages and accessory buildings, used for work areas, and (5) all areas of basements not intended to be habitable living spaces. As for tapping after the main, there might not be space for double hole lugs, as it is also a code violation to put two conductors in a single hole lug. And properly sized over current protection must be within 5 feet of conductor if tapped at the main. Lots of rules, but there to protect you.

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