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slow set super glue ?

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Forum topic by recycle1943 posted 02-21-2019 09:27 PM 476 views 0 times favorited 12 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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recycle1943

2771 posts in 1920 days


02-21-2019 09:27 PM

It was suggested that I move this from the blog to here and I still don’t know if this is the right area but

This may be a redundent question but I’ve been searching and haven’t been able to find just what I’m looking for.

Anybody that has seen my bowls or lampshades you know that I’ve been incorporating resin into them. The issue is that the glue I use take 4 to 5 hours to set and life would be so much nicer if I could find a glue that would allow me to align and clamp the rings with a couple minutes to set.
I haven’t tried it yet because I don’t have any but I don’t believe a glue with a spray activater will give me the permanent joint necessary.

so the question is – has anybody any experience with a slow set (a couple minutes) super glue and resin ?

-- Dick, Malvern Ohio - my biggest fear is that when I die, my wife sells my toys for what I told her I paid for them


12 replies so far

View Jim Deatsch's profile

Jim Deatsch

18 posts in 150 days


#1 posted 02-21-2019 10:05 PM

Dick,

To my knowledge there are two basic types of Cyanoacrylate, generically. Both are sold under many brand names. One is referred to as ‘instant’ and the second is known as slow setting ‘gel’.

The slow setting gel gives you time to put a dab on your work and then join the two pieces without them locking together ‘instantly’.

You MAY use the ‘kicker’ with the gel to speed up it’s set time but it’s not necessary.

I don’t believe there is any need for ‘resin’ with either product.

Hth,

Jim

-- It's 5 o'clock somewhere. Scott Kalitta

View SMP's profile

SMP

456 posts in 203 days


#2 posted 02-21-2019 11:16 PM

I’m a little confused. The gel gives you slightly more positioning time. But one of the best things about the liquid is the capillary action. You can clamp your pieces and then glue, the capilary action sucks the glue into your joint.

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recycle1943

2771 posts in 1920 days


#3 posted 02-22-2019 12:02 AM

Jim,
I’m gluing wood to resin to wood. The easiest explanation is to look at a couple of my bowls
Molded resin is sandwiched between various species of wood and wood glue will not adhere to the resin
there’s an activater for gel glue ?

-- Dick, Malvern Ohio - my biggest fear is that when I die, my wife sells my toys for what I told her I paid for them

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recycle1943

2771 posts in 1920 days


#4 posted 02-22-2019 12:04 AM

I’m using gorilla clear glue but it too slippery and take hours to set

-- Dick, Malvern Ohio - my biggest fear is that when I die, my wife sells my toys for what I told her I paid for them

View SMP's profile

SMP

456 posts in 203 days


#5 posted 02-22-2019 03:53 AM



Jim,
I m gluing wood to resin to wood. The easiest explanation is to look at a couple of my bowls
Molded resin is sandwiched between various species of wood and wood glue will not adhere to the resin
there s an activater for gel glue ?

- recycle1943

The accelerator just accelerates the setting of CA, doesn’t matter if its thin, medium or gel. Its still the same CA main ingredient

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

942 posts in 1792 days


#6 posted 02-22-2019 08:25 AM

Hmm, bonding resin/wood with fast assembly time?

Sounds like perfect application for 2 part Polyurethane or Hot Melt Polyurethane. They are some of the fastest assembly adhesives available and stick like grim death to most everything (except silicone).

And before you say it won’t work, keep reading. Not talking about silly foaming Gorilla glue polyurethane or useless hot melt found in craft stores for gluing dried flowers to vases. I am talking about commercial grade adhesives used in million pound quantities, by folks like vehicle mfg bonding metal/wood to plastic/metal panels.

Normally these kinds of adhesives are strictly for commercial applications. Raw materials used in 2 part systems are not retail consumer friendly, with some materials require expensive HAZMAT waste disposal and state/federal OHSA registrations. Hot melt materials are notoriously hard to get consistent performance under varying humidity/temp conditions, unless you need to apply 50lbs+ per shift on mfg line and buy dedicated dispensing equipment. But there are some newer products available:

1) 2 part structural polyurethane
These behave sort of like epoxy syringes found at BORG, but better. Have integrated disposable mixing tip, and provide open time from seconds to a few minutes. Initial tack is 20-50% of final strength, with max strength in about 24-72 hours depending on humidity. 3M and Loctite are huge in this area, with another dozen small companies supplying niche markets. Problem is most these folks dislike dealing with small customers. One source for little guy is someone like Ellsworth adhesives. They sell on WWW in small qty to most anyone. They even have a ‘glue doctor’ that can help you find the right adhesive. :-)

2) Hot Melt Polyurethane
There are about a dozen folks supplying volume mfg with different materials in this area. Most are not accessible to home shop. BUT – Folks at Infinity Bond have released a consumer friendly 1 part, curing polyurethane hot melt. Woodcraft sells it as well. This is designed for fast wood bonding, and is supposed to get past all bad habits of Gorilla glue, or regular 2-part epoxy. Have never personally used the Infinity Bond materials, but have a few years experience with similar commercial 1 & 2 part polyurethane adhesives.

Sorry, I know nothing about your projects. But your description of difficulties sounds same old problems that these materials have been fixing for 25+ years?

Hope this information is helpful.

Best Luck.

-- I'm an engineer not a woodworker, but I can randomly find useful tools and furniture inside a pile of lumber!

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recycle1943

2771 posts in 1920 days


#7 posted 02-22-2019 11:18 AM

@CaptainKlutz – although I certainly appreciate your insight albiet WAY more technical and involved than I need to contend with, a simple slow set Cyanoacrylate (2 to 3 minutes ) is my quest.
If there is no such thing, then I can merely continue with the gorilla glue – it works for me, just not quick enough to allow the production I seek.

-- Dick, Malvern Ohio - my biggest fear is that when I die, my wife sells my toys for what I told her I paid for them

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

942 posts in 1792 days


#8 posted 02-22-2019 12:07 PM

Doubt you will find slow (several minutes) Cyanoacrylate (CA)?
FWIW
There is no simple way to create ‘slow’ CA. The difference between thin, med, and thick is length of polymer chain, and number of reactive sites per volume of adhesive. Thick cross links little slower only due fewer bonding sites per volume, while also able to bridge small gaps in bond line; but not minutes slower. CA cross links in absence of oxygen, or in a highly alkaline condition; and when in close proximity to bond-able surfaces – it kicks off the reaction. You can speed up reaction time by adding accelerator. Standard CA accelerator is amine that changes the PH and forces reaction immediately. You can pre-treat 1/2 of bonding surface with accelerator, apply gel CA to other side; and get reasonably consistent bonding time. How fast, depends on size of bond line and ambient temp?

There are some CA formulations, created for flexible bonding of rubber and plastics. The change in formula results in slightly slower cure time. The retail versions are used to be black colored CA adhesives, labeled for plastics; but haven’t seen them at BORG in couple years? They will work on wood, and metal if needed. The commercial products are clear, look for Loctite 4902 or Permabond 743T for examples of commercial products. The flexible CA products can take up to 30-50 seconds to bond?
https://www.ellsworth.com/globalassets/literature-library/manufacturer/henkel-loctite/henkel-loctite-white-paper_flexible-cyanoacrylates-loctite-4902-and-4903.pdf

I still think you might want to try the infinity PUR hot melt adhesive? You could get the strength of Gorilla glue, 30-60 second open time, with short clamp time desired. Saw a demonstration of PUR when it was introduced, and it reminded me of stuff I co-developed and patented back in early 90’s. hehe
BTW – Titebond released a hot melt polyurethane several years ago for commercial wood bonding, but got in legal trouble with tech used, and taken off market. The Infinity PUR is advertised as drop in replacement.

Best Luck.

-- I'm an engineer not a woodworker, but I can randomly find useful tools and furniture inside a pile of lumber!

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recycle1943

2771 posts in 1920 days


#9 posted 02-22-2019 02:20 PM

@CaptainKlutz – this is what I’m dealing with
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/397609

The clear or see thru is a 2 part resin, the same thing used for river tables and counter tops

-- Dick, Malvern Ohio - my biggest fear is that when I die, my wife sells my toys for what I told her I paid for them

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

942 posts in 1792 days


#10 posted 02-22-2019 03:49 PM


@CaptainKlutz – this is what I m dealing with
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/397609

The clear or see thru is a 2 part resin, the same thing used for river tables and counter tops

- recycle1943

OK. Being a technologist, your 2-part resin information is vague. Forces a longer answer, sorry in advance:

Best adhesive for bonding epoxy (typical river resin) is more epoxy. Clearest RETAIL epoxy adhesive I know of is Pacer Technology/ZAP Z-Poxy line. It uses a very clear curative, unlike many of conventional epoxies that will have a yellow color after curing.
The 30 minute cure product will give you 5-20 minutes of open time, and can be un-clamped in less than 1 hour (depending on ambient temp and qty mixed at one time). Would still recommend 24 hours above 72F before any vigorous machining to reach full cure, but can be handled, or another part attached after 30-45 minutes.
If your assembly time is short, 5 min cure version offers 1-2 minutes of open time, and can be lightly handled in 10-20 minutes – machined in 6-8 hours. Depending on your epoxy river resin, you might even be able to use it (or faster cure product from same mfg) for bonding things together?

If you are using one of less common polyester resins for clear portions of bowl, then Polyurethane will provide best bond strength and durability. With polyester resin, I would stick to using gorilla glue or try the general purpose PUR hot melt.
Making a 2-part poly adhesive with fast cure time is easy if you’re me. I would simply formulate a polyurethane using some hard polyether & soft butadiene resins, mixed with some methylene diisocyanate and a cure cataylst. Too bad not everyone has access to raw materials and knowledge required for DIY urethane? lol
Most epoxy adhesives will stick to polyester resin and will work in the application. But the Coefficient of Thermal Expansion’s (CTE) are different, and the bond line won’t be as durable as polyurethane if thermal cycled through a wide temperature range.

To be transparent (punny, i know), not sure long term durability should even be a concern. Epoxy resins used in river castings and table tops are not known for longevity. They have a tendency towards extreme yellowing with age and exposure to strong UV light. This is one reason that river tables get dyed blue, as it hides the yellow. Yellowing is number one complaint with epoxy resin based clear coats within industry. Outdoor bar/table tops with thick epoxy covering decorations have to be resurfaced about every 2-4 years in restaurant business, even with application of strong UV blocking top coat. So if your bowls become lampshades and are subjected to strong UV/blue/white led light, you may find them change color over time? IDK – Different epoxy resins have different properties, so without making a deep dive into the chemistry you are using can not do more than guess based on history.

YMMV

-- I'm an engineer not a woodworker, but I can randomly find useful tools and furniture inside a pile of lumber!

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recycle1943

2771 posts in 1920 days


#11 posted 02-22-2019 04:52 PM

@CaptainKlutz – I probably should have mentioned that I tint the resin before I pour it into the mold so the yelowing effect should not be as unattractive as could be and may not be even noticeable for who knows how long.
Also, my bowls seldom if ever reach the outdoors but are used indoors as decoration and center pieces to hold fruit etc.
The other factor involved here is that my workshop is the better half of a 2 1/2 car garage and when I mix the resin making ready to pour in my mold, everything else stops because of room area and to hold down dust.
It appears as tho I’m going to have to simply glue my rings in several steps in an effort to minimize movement.
Juast moments ago I glued a piece of wood to a piece of resin using plain old ca. So far it has married and looks like it will hold.
A hammer and wedge will tell the whole story – will know tomorrow

-- Dick, Malvern Ohio - my biggest fear is that when I die, my wife sells my toys for what I told her I paid for them

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recycle1943

2771 posts in 1920 days


#12 posted 02-22-2019 06:55 PM

Well, didn’t have to wait til tomorrow, actually I couldn’t wait. It seems that a regular ca glue married the wood and resin strip quite well. I couldn’t hammer it apart so guess I’ll get some gel and try it to see how much time I have and just how slippery it is.

-- Dick, Malvern Ohio - my biggest fear is that when I die, my wife sells my toys for what I told her I paid for them

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