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Forum topic by Kenneth Wayne Reeves J.r. posted 02-15-2019 06:55 PM 1755 views 0 times favorited 40 replies Add to Favorites Watch

02-15-2019 06:55 PM

Topic tags/keywords: finish messed up minwax finish polyurethane messed up polyurethane

Hey guys. I need Help. I don’t want to take the finish off of this barn door I just stained. But after 48 hours of sitting, I went to mount it and got some 1/16 inch deep scratches like it was butter. is there a way for me to fix this without taking all the finish off. One place is at the very bottom of the door. The other part is in the middle style. Please let me know if you guys in all your knowledge can help me. It is a cherry Minwax stain, with their oil based fast drying poly. I am going to buy some arm r seal.


40 replies so far

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1325 posts in 1119 days


#1 posted 02-15-2019 07:23 PM

Polyurethane varnish of any brand is still only partially cured after 48 hours. I don’t know about Arm-R-Seal but suspect it would not be any more scratch resistant in that time frame. It might be you are expecting too much from any finish that has just been applied.

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

567 posts in 1406 days


#2 posted 02-16-2019 01:57 AM

You can try this: with a razor blade and/or exacto knife (must be sharp) gently scrape the edges of the scratches to smooth them and remove any loose flakes. Then with a small brush, fill the scratch with poly without overflowing the edges of the scratch. After the requisite drying time (4 hours ?) do the same again. Keep doing this until the last application is, at least, level with the original finish. Let it all dry for several days until it has fully hardened. Then gently scrape with a sharp razor blade until everything is level. At this point, you may need to block sand the whole area working from +- 220 grit to 600 wet/dry or finer until it all has a similar polish. Good luck.

View Richard's profile

Richard

11228 posts in 3336 days


#3 posted 02-16-2019 02:18 AM


Polyurethane varnish of any brand is still only partially cured after 48 hours. I don t know about Arm-R-Seal but suspect it would not be any more scratch resistant in that time frame. It might be you are expecting too much from any finish that has just been applied.

- ArtMann

Polyurethane is not a Varnish I use Minwax Poly Stain all of the time and 24 hours is more than enough time for it to dry. I then apply 2/3 coats of Minwax Clear Poly, usually Semi Gloss and it dries faster than the Stain, maybe 4/5 hours. I use 000 or 0000 Steel Wool to Buff it down between coats.

Richard

-- Richard (Ontario, CANADA)

#4 posted 02-17-2019 06:20 AM

I am going to try this tomorrow. Thank you.


You can try this: with a razor blade and/or exacto knife (must be sharp) gently scrape the edges of the scratches to smooth them and remove any loose flakes. Then with a small brush, fill the scratch with poly without overflowing the edges of the scratch. After the requisite drying time (4 hours ?) do the same again. Keep doing this until the last application is, at least, level with the original finish. Let it all dry for several days until it has fully hardened. Then gently scrape with a sharp razor blade until everything is level. At this point, you may need to block sand the whole area working from +- 220 grit to 600 wet/dry or finer until it all has a similar polish. Good luck.

- bilyo


#5 posted 02-17-2019 06:21 AM

Yeah. I mean it scratched like butter. Not like the other piece i did at the same tie.


Polyurethane varnish of any brand is still only partially cured after 48 hours. I don t know about Arm-R-Seal but suspect it would not be any more scratch resistant in that time frame. It might be you are expecting too much from any finish that has just been applied.

- ArtMann


View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5389 posts in 2796 days


#6 posted 02-17-2019 12:23 PM


Polyurethane is not a Varnish
Richard

- Richard


It most certainly is varnish, at least if it’s oil based. Varnish is a more correct name for it than “polyurethane”.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Richard's profile

Richard

11228 posts in 3336 days


#7 posted 02-17-2019 11:52 PM

Polyurethane is not a Varnish
Richard

- Richard

It most certainly is varnish, at least if it s oil based. Varnish is a more correct name for it than “polyurethane”.

- Fred Hargis

Wiki: The term “varnish” refers to the finished appearance of the product. It is not a term for any single or specific chemical composition or formula. There are many different compositions that achieve a varnish effect when applied. A distinction between spirit-drying (and generally removable) “lacquers” and chemical-cure “varnishes” (generally thermosets containing “drying” oils) is common, but varnish is a broad term historically and the distinction is not strict.

Polyurethane Wiki: Any of various polymers containing the urethane radical; a wide variety of synthetic forms are made and used as adhesives, plastics, paints or rubber.

They are 2 Different Products. Varnish is always Oil Based. Poly can be either Water or Oil based.

I use to use Varnish and/or Shellac many years ago. Not anymore. Now it’s all Poly selected from many different types.

-- Richard (Ontario, CANADA)

#8 posted 02-17-2019 11:56 PM

I agree.

Polyurethane is not a Varnish
Richard

- Richard

It most certainly is varnish, at least if it s oil based. Varnish is a more correct name for it than “polyurethane”.

- Fred Hargis

Wiki: The term “varnish” refers to the finished appearance of the product. It is not a term for any single or specific chemical composition or formula. There are many different compositions that achieve a varnish effect when applied. A distinction between spirit-drying (and generally removable) “lacquers” and chemical-cure “varnishes” (generally thermosets containing “drying” oils) is common, but varnish is a broad term historically and the distinction is not strict.

Polyurethane Wiki: Any of various polymers containing the urethane radical; a wide variety of synthetic forms are made and used as adhesives, plastics, paints or rubber.

They are 2 Different Products. Varnish is always Oil Based. Poly can be either Water or Oil based.

- Richard


View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5136 posts in 2612 days


#9 posted 02-18-2019 12:15 AM

When is come to names of finishes just goodie until you find the answer to support your calm. There are so many lies and misinformation than you can shake a stick at in the finish business.

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/polyurethane-varnish-98832.html

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Richard's profile

Richard

11228 posts in 3336 days


#10 posted 02-18-2019 12:32 AM



When is come to names of finishes just goodie until you find the answer to support your calm. There are so many lies and misinformation than you can shake a stick at in the finish business.

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/polyurethane-varnish-98832.html

- AlaskaGuy

Thanks Alaska Guy. I went to that Link. A lot of good Info that applies directly to this discussion and access to a lot more info. I Bookmarked that Site for Reference.

-- Richard (Ontario, CANADA)

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2161 posts in 2293 days


#11 posted 02-18-2019 10:31 PM

Agree with AlaskaGuy, with finishes as well as many other things people can google till they find the answer they want. Folks can rely on wiki definitions… I won’t. At least Bob Flexner has some cred when it comes to finishes, and according to Bob, solvent polyurethane varnish is a varnish. Recent article of his here.

The op can blame minwax for the scratches, but ARS will fair no better. Not sure of any finish that would withstand whatever caused a 1/16” deep scratch, cured or not.

#12 posted 02-19-2019 01:21 AM

I never blamed it for the scatches I blame it for the inconsistent drying times. I did a piece before I did this with no problem. Also, I quoted the wrong guy when i said i agree. Varnish is varnish. poly is poly. They are both finishes but poly is most definitely not a varnish. Completely different things. Varnish, shellac, and lacquer are what I am comfortable with. This is the first thing i have ever polyied so it is just a new beast to me. I just need time to play with it.


Agree with AlaskaGuy, with finishes as well as many other things people can google till they find the answer they want. Folks can rely on wiki definitions… I won t. At least Bob Flexner has some cred when it comes to finishes, and according to Bob, solvent polyurethane varnish is a varnish. Recent article of his here.

The op can blame minwax for the scratches, but ARS will fair no better. Not sure of any finish that would withstand whatever caused a 1/16” deep scratch, cured or not.

- OSU55


I agree.

Polyurethane is not a Varnish
Richard

- Richard

It most certainly is varnish, at least if it s oil based. Varnish is a more correct name for it than “polyurethane”.

- Fred Hargis

Wiki: The term “varnish” refers to the finished appearance of the product. It is not a term for any single or specific chemical composition or formula. There are many different compositions that achieve a varnish effect when applied. A distinction between spirit-drying (and generally removable) “lacquers” and chemical-cure “varnishes” (generally thermosets containing “drying” oils) is common, but varnish is a broad term historically and the distinction is not strict.

Polyurethane Wiki: Any of various polymers containing the urethane radical; a wide variety of synthetic forms are made and used as adhesives, plastics, paints or rubber.

They are 2 Different Products. Varnish is always Oil Based. Poly can be either Water or Oil based.

- Richard

- Kenneth Wayne Reeves J.r.


#13 posted 02-19-2019 01:23 AM

These are the scratches so you guys can help me more.

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1325 posts in 1119 days


#14 posted 02-19-2019 01:58 AM

All the woodworkers I know – and there are hundreds – refer to polyurethane as a type of varnish. If somebody wants to argue with that, they are more than welcome to do so. I plan to continue referring to it as a type of varnish because I want people to understand what I am talking about. I don’t think there is any such thing as water based lacquer but I am more than happy to let other people call it that. I don’t want people to think I am an obnoxious know-it-all.

The odd thing about your use of the definition of varnish you quoted describes polyurethane about as well as any definition I could imagine. It just seems you are making an artificial distinction to be contrary. Why? Who are you trying to impress?

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1325 posts in 1119 days


#15 posted 02-19-2019 02:24 AM

I got curious about your information, which does not go along with my 20+ years of experience with the product. I just went out to the shop and read the application notes on an actual can of Minwax polyurethane. It said to wait 24 hours before normal use, provided the application environment is 77 degrees and the relative humidity is 50% or less. I very much doubt many people are applying varnish at a temperature of 77 degrees on this side of the equator at this time of year. How come this material works so much differently for you than the manufacturer says?

I went to the Minwax website and tried to find something called “Minwax Poly Stain”. They didn’t mention a product with this name. Is this a product that only sells in Canada or are you just making it up? I can’t believe you said this and you are accusing me of using erroneous terminology.


Polyurethane is not a Varnish I use Minwax Poly Stain all of the time and 24 hours is more than enough time for it to dry. I then apply 2/3 coats of Minwax Clear Poly, usually Semi Gloss and it dries faster than the Stain, maybe 4/5 hours. I use 000 or 0000 Steel Wool to Buff it down between coats.

Richard

- Richard


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