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Forum topic by jivers posted 01-20-2019 11:57 PM 542 views 0 times favorited 11 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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jivers

14 posts in 1171 days


01-20-2019 11:57 PM

I have a small basement shop and am adding dust collection. I recently finished the basement and in addition to a desire for better air quality than what was provided by my old air filter / window fan / dust-extractor-hooked-to-a-tool system, I’m investing in a DC to mitigate mess in the rest of the basement area.

Aside from space constraints, I have a (dedicated) 20a 110v circuit, and am limited to 1.5 to 1.75hp DC.

All of my woodworking tools are small—contractor table saw (with custom enclosure), benchtop drill press / bandsaw, etc.

My intention is to run a trunkline beneath a work surface / miter saw table that runs most of the length of one side of the shop, with a couple gated branches from which I’ll run flex hose to the table saw, drill press, bandsaw, etc.

I was told by a fellow at my local Woodcraft that a 1hp DC will not support a manifold system. What do you think about 1hp vs. 1.5hp, given the shops specs I’ve described?

The same fellow pointed me towards a 1.5hp Supermax DC with a 1-micron cloth bag. I’ve since read mainly discouraging reviews of cloth bags – regardless of rating, consensus seems to be that they’re dust makers. Thoughts on this?

I have an exhaust concern—I cannot wall off the front of my shop – the portion leading into the rest of the basement—because I build kayaks and need the available space to maneuver these craft into / out of my shop and basement. My intention is to hang vinyl accordion doors of the sort available at box stores. I’m concerned the pressure differential created by the DC will blow dust beneath this, even with the shop area window open. There are solutions to this that I can think of—I could easily fashion something akin to a draft guard that lies at the base of the doors – imperfect but probably better than nothing. In any event, thoughts about this eventuality?

At this point, the best option seems to be a 1.5 hp DC with a Wynn 222 filter (I’d also add a trash can cyclone). Wheeling a DC around my shop isn’t a good option once I have tools, portable outfeed tables, etc., set up, so the fixed manifold system seems most practical.

Thank you in advance for your feedback!


11 replies so far

View jamsomito's profile

jamsomito

431 posts in 789 days


#1 posted 01-21-2019 01:51 AM

I’d argue that even a 1.5HP unit would be not quite enough for a bunch of piped runs. Maybe if you have one header 10ft long or less it might be ok, but definitely not sprawling over the whole room with branches everywhere. Get the biggest unit you can, keep the ductwork as short as possible (and if you have to choose, duct is better than flex), and be mindful of efficiency losses like leaks, sharp bends, blast gates, etc.

I’d strongly recommend the Wynn filter. For one, you can seal it to your dust collector better than the bags, but it also has a much larger surface area and will help with flows quite a bit. I was surprised how much it opened up when I installed mine. Plus, it will have better filtration for the fines the system is able to collect.

The trash can separator is going to kill your airflow on a 1-1.5HP unit. If you’re going that route, you might want to just consider keeping the bag. If you must add something, at a minimum consider a Thien baffle, or get some kind of cyclone like a super dust deputy.

The DC won’t change the pressure in the shop at all if it’s exhausting to the same room as the tools. That is, unless it’s blowing directly out an opening to another room or something. It will have the same suction as exhaust and thus won’t change the pressure. If you exhaust outside it would be even better, but now you’re venting conditioned air outside of the house so you’ll have to watch it during the weather extremes.

Hope this helps. Have fun.

View TungOil's profile (online now)

TungOil

1210 posts in 858 days


#2 posted 01-21-2019 02:10 AM

In addition the points jamsomito makes above, if you are running a single 20a circuit in you shop you will have a hard time running even a 1 hp DC and any tools at the same time. My shop has multiple 20a 120v circuits and even when it was the only thing running on the circuit my 1.75hp DC would intermittently trip the breaker. I eventually pulled a 240v dedicated circuit for it.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

1237 posts in 1857 days


#3 posted 01-21-2019 09:41 AM

+1 Any 1.5HP DC is marginal for creating a central DC system.

Own a Delta 50-850 1.5HP DC. Mfg rated it at 1200 cfm or 850 cfm depending which marketing sheet you read. But that has to be with zero hose/dust connected, actual is a lot less. When using 5” duct it breathes well, and will support a short trunk line; but you can not add on many 90’s or choke it down with long 4” flexible duct as CFM drops quickly. Had one shop with 12’ long 5” trunk along one wall, and it worked OK for saw/planer/jointer; but not for oscillating sander or miter saw. When I moved from that shop, decided to use the 1.5HP DC as single hose, roll it around to one tool at time system.

+1 The current draw on 1.5HP motor DC can be problematic.
The current draw varies with back pressure of system. With no pipe, mine would draw 30A+ on start up and trip a 20A breaker about half time it started. Use 4” duct and stopped tripping breakers.
Also, be very careful buying a wireless control for 1.5HP 120V DC. Mine fried (2) iVac 120V units just after warranty expired, and I decided it was best to build my own.

Wood Magazine and Fine Woodworking have both performed reviews/comparisons of 1.5HP DC. The articles are behind a subscription wall last I checked, but Google found this review that may help you understand the challenge with smaller DC.

Best Luck.

-- I'm an engineer not a woodworker, but I can randomly find useful tools and furniture inside a pile of lumber!

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5507 posts in 2856 days


#4 posted 01-21-2019 11:39 AM

I don’t disagree with anything said thus far, but you asked about cloth bags. IME they work very good…but they do have downsides. They will need to be cleaned periodically (as will filters, but more often) and it can be a mess to do so. The filters will allow more air movement (usually) as well, since they have a lot more surface are for the filtering action…..they are also usually tighter than the bags (smaller particles trapped). I read your post as saying you have a dedicated 120V circuit for the DC (?), if true the 1.5 HP unit will have to do. Just remember, the separator will reduce air flow somewhat, so the piping runs should be as short as possible. I don’t think I’d get the trash can separator (if you mean this thing) instead either build a Thein, or buy a commercial cyclone topper for the trash can.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Robert's profile

Robert

3371 posts in 1844 days


#5 posted 01-21-2019 03:33 PM

I’ve been running a Jet 1.5HP blower with 6” ducts to a 20” planer, 8” jointer, 18” bandsaw and two tablesaws (25’ away). I’m not saying its the best, but it does the job.

And this is with a cyclone. When I revamped my DC I intended to put in a 3HP blower, but couldn’t find one, so I used what I had, never even expecting it to work.

Been using it like this about 2 years. Never once tripped a breaker.

That said, I agree about minimizing flex, but for a small shop it should work fine.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View jivers's profile

jivers

14 posts in 1171 days


#6 posted 01-21-2019 06:42 PM


I d argue that even a 1.5HP unit would be not quite enough for a bunch of piped runs. Maybe if you have one header 10ft long or less it might be ok, but definitely not sprawling over the whole room with branches everywhere. Get the biggest unit you can, keep the ductwork as short as possible (and if you have to choose, duct is better than flex), and be mindful of efficiency losses like leaks, sharp bends, blast gates, etc.

I d strongly recommend the Wynn filter. For one, you can seal it to your dust collector better than the bags, but it also has a much larger surface area and will help with flows quite a bit. I was surprised how much it opened up when I installed mine. Plus, it will have better filtration for the fines the system is able to collect.

The trash can separator is going to kill your airflow on a 1-1.5HP unit. If you re going that route, you might want to just consider keeping the bag. If you must add something, at a minimum consider a Thien baffle, or get some kind of cyclone like a super dust deputy.

The DC won t change the pressure in the shop at all if it s exhausting to the same room as the tools. That is, unless it s blowing directly out an opening to another room or something. It will have the same suction as exhaust and thus won t change the pressure. If you exhaust outside it would be even better, but now you re venting conditioned air outside of the house so you ll have to watch it during the weather extremes.

Hope this helps. Have fun.

- jamsomito

@jamsomito, thanks for the feedback. I’ll have to reconsider the separator solution, given that it will reduce the system’s airflow.

Re: pressure – yes, of course, that makes total sense once you stated the obvious ;)

Noted on maintaining short runs, which is my plan. The main trunk is about 6’ long, and will use conduit. My miter will essentially feed directly into this, also using conduit. All of this runs beneath the aforementioned bench. In addition to the miter line, two branches will come off for my TS and benchtop tools. The longest of these is 6’ – and both will use 2.5” hose.

View jivers's profile

jivers

14 posts in 1171 days


#7 posted 01-21-2019 06:45 PM



In addition the points jamsomito makes above, if you are running a single 20a circuit in you shop you will have a hard time running even a 1 hp DC and any tools at the same time. My shop has multiple 20a 120v circuits and even when it was the only thing running on the circuit my 1.75hp DC would intermittently trip the breaker. I eventually pulled a 240v dedicated circuit for it.

- TungOil

@TungOil, thanks for the comments. To get 220v, I’d need to upgrade the service to my home, upgrade are rewire my board, in addition to a whole bunch of other associated work. Total overkill for my needs, but in the meantime,
the 20a circuit is dedicated to the DC.

View jivers's profile

jivers

14 posts in 1171 days


#8 posted 01-21-2019 07:01 PM


I don t disagree with anything said thus far, but you asked about cloth bags. IME they work very good…but they do have downsides. They will need to be cleaned periodically (as will filters, but more often) and it can be a mess to do so. The filters will allow more air movement (usually) as well, since they have a lot more surface are for the filtering action…..they are also usually tighter than the bags (smaller particles trapped). I read your post as saying you have a dedicated 120V circuit for the DC (?), if true the 1.5 HP unit will have to do. Just remember, the separator will reduce air flow somewhat, so the piping runs should be as short as possible. I don t think I d get the trash can separator (if you mean this thing) instead either build a Thein, or buy a commercial cyclone topper for the trash can.

- Fred Hargis

Thanks Fred. What’s evident from your feedback and that of others is that I’ll need to test into the best separator solution.

I don’t really need to add another $200 to my costs, and the baffle looks pretty straightforward to create, but thoughts on something like this in place of a baffle: https://www.woodcraft.com/products/oneida-air-systems-4-super-dust-deputy-deluxe

View jivers's profile

jivers

14 posts in 1171 days


#9 posted 01-21-2019 07:02 PM



I ve been running a Jet 1.5HP blower with 6” ducts to a 20” planer, 8” jointer, 18” bandsaw and two tablesaws (25 away). I m not saying its the best, but it does the job.

And this is with a cyclone. When I revamped my DC I intended to put in a 3HP blower, but couldn t find one, so I used what I had, never even expecting it to work.

Been using it like this about 2 years. Never once tripped a breaker.

That said, I agree about minimizing flex, but for a small shop it should work fine.

- rwe2156

Hi @rwe2156—does your system exhaust directly or empty into a collection bag?

View jivers's profile

jivers

14 posts in 1171 days


#10 posted 01-21-2019 07:12 PM



+1 Any 1.5HP DC is marginal for creating a central DC system.

Own a Delta 50-850 1.5HP DC. Mfg rated it at 1200 cfm or 850 cfm depending which marketing sheet you read. But that has to be with zero hose/dust connected, actual is a lot less. When using 5” duct it breathes well, and will support a short trunk line; but you can not add on many 90 s or choke it down with long 4” flexible duct as CFM drops quickly. Had one shop with 12 long 5” trunk along one wall, and it worked OK for saw/planer/jointer; but not for oscillating sander or miter saw. When I moved from that shop, decided to use the 1.5HP DC as single hose, roll it around to one tool at time system.

+1 The current draw on 1.5HP motor DC can be problematic.
The current draw varies with back pressure of system. With no pipe, mine would draw 30A+ on start up and trip a 20A breaker about half time it started. Use 4” duct and stopped tripping breakers.
Also, be very careful buying a wireless control for 1.5HP 120V DC. Mine fried (2) iVac 120V units just after warranty expired, and I decided it was best to build my own.

Wood Magazine and Fine Woodworking have both performed reviews/comparisons of 1.5HP DC. The articles are behind a subscription wall last I checked, but Google found this review that may help you understand the challenge with smaller DC.

Best Luck.

- CaptainKlutz

@CaptainKlutz, thanks for the article. The graphs are useful—though it’s interesting that when lining up the specs of each DC, neither CFM nor static pressure was included.

I’d think the latter would be particularly important in the context of this post—overcoming the SP added by ductwork.

View toddbeaulieu's profile

toddbeaulieu

837 posts in 3367 days


#11 posted 01-25-2019 08:41 PM

Cloth bags … the ironic elephant in the corner while we’re talking about dust health. Fire it up! Watch it expand with a snap, releasing millions of tiny wood dust particles into the air. Breath deep! Ahhhhh! Good stuff!

I have the ClearView CV MAX and can’t imagine anything less. It’s a one time purchase and you’ll never look back.

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