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Target Coatings EM6000 or EM7000

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Forum topic by Rich posted 08-30-2018 05:38 PM 1928 views 0 times favorited 15 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Rich

4579 posts in 1012 days


08-30-2018 05:38 PM

Topic tags/keywords: question

I’m going to give the Target Coatings product a try. I generally am unimpressed with waterborne finishes, but with so many LJs, who clearly know what they’re doing, touting their products, it’s worth a try. I have a 20% coupon, which brings the price into a palatable range.

My question is, which of the products in the title do you prefer? I generally go with high solids lacquer from Sher-Wood, so I’m leaning towards the EM7000. However, the only product I can recall you all mentioning is the EM6000.

Please help me out with this decision.

-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki


15 replies so far

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5317 posts in 2731 days


#1 posted 08-30-2018 05:59 PM

Rich, I would suggest you call and have a chat with Jeff @ Target Coating. Tell him what you’re finishing and what he recommends. That’s what I did when I finished the Blood Wood kitchen. For my application Jeff recommend EM 2000 WVX. He also gave me some tips on using it that were not on the can. For example, contrary to what the can said he told me for the first coat to thin it 50-50. I found Jeff to be very friendly and helpful.

BTW the finish on my cabinets is holding up well so far. It’s been 6 years and 9 months

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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Rich

4579 posts in 1012 days


#2 posted 08-30-2018 06:30 PM


Rich, I would suggest you call and have a chat with Jeff @ Target Coating. Tell him what you re finishing and what he recommends. That s what I did when I finished the Blood Wood kitchen.

- AlaskaGuy

Thanks AG. I’ll do that. Those sure are beautiful cabinets. Do you feel you got the depth grain enhancement you would from a solvent based product?

-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1274 posts in 917 days


#3 posted 08-30-2018 06:32 PM

Agreed, you should talk to Jeff.

To answer your question directly, I prefer the EM6000 for furniture due to its burn-in ability. I found they all sprayed about the same. I didn’t test the 7000 so can’t talk to that product (my impression was it was more for high build applications like instruments). Try some EM1000 sealer under it as well.

Lay the stuff on heavy when you spray it. It will look a bit milky when you first put it down and you will swear you put on too much, but nope. It will have a more clear or blue final appearance when cured if you are used to solvent based products that typically have an amber tone. Also, it takes about 2 weeks to fully cure and it will definitely change appearance over that time, pulling tighter to the surface. It dries to handle quickly like a solvent lacquer (15-30 min). Also, Jeff will tell you to grain fill open pore woods like mahogany or you will see what looks like trapped air bubbles in the finish.

For exterior work I believe Jeff recommends only the 9300.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

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AlaskaGuy

5317 posts in 2731 days


#4 posted 08-30-2018 06:48 PM

As I recall em 2000 had burn in qualities if re-coated with in a time frame. This is a good question to asked Jeff about what ever product he may recommend.

From Target’s website:
Other EMTECH™ top coats such as EM2000wvx, EM8000cv, 9000sc and EM9300 will also burn-into the last coat applied, however, this functionality begins to lower the further out in time the last coat has had to dry/cure.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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AlaskaGuy

5317 posts in 2731 days


#5 posted 08-30-2018 06:52 PM


Thanks AG. I ll do that. Those sure are beautiful cabinets. Do you feel you got the depth grain enhancement you would from a solvent based product?

- Rich

Can’t really answer that. I don’t have much experience with solvent based finishes except wipe on poly.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1274 posts in 917 days


#6 posted 08-30-2018 07:14 PM


. Do you feel you got the depth grain enhancement you would from a solvent based product?

- Rich

Rich, from my testing on pommelle sapele, I would say no. I’ve yet to find a WB finish that matches the chatoyance of a solvent finish like Arm-R-Seal.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

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Rich

4579 posts in 1012 days


#7 posted 08-31-2018 03:02 PM

Thank you everyone for the feedback. I think I’m going to stick with my Sher-Wood Hi-Bild pre-cat lacquer. I only have to drive about a mile to buy it, it’s cheaper, and I know it like the back of my hand, so there’s never any surprises.

Tung’s comment about bluish really turned me off. I’ve tried WB products before, and on some woods they look fine, but on mesquite they do exhibit that bluish hue and it drives me nuts…lol

-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1274 posts in 917 days


#8 posted 08-31-2018 03:07 PM

Rich- It’s really more clear than blue, but looks blue next to, say, Arm-R-Seal because of the strong amber cast that finish has.

Don’t forget about the other benefits of WB finishes like non-haz/non-flam and best of all the super easy clean up. You should give it a try.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View ScottM's profile

ScottM

737 posts in 2569 days


#9 posted 08-31-2018 03:34 PM

I’ve only sprayed the EM6000. Never noticed any odd tints. In order to get some of the rich wood tones, I sometimes apply a seal coat of shellac prior to the EM6000.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5317 posts in 2731 days


#10 posted 08-31-2018 04:22 PM

I keep looking and I can find anything wrong with this finish. Maybe something wrong with my eyes. I find no blue haze or any of that stuff you hear about water based finished. Maybe ignorance is bliss.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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Rich

4579 posts in 1012 days


#11 posted 08-31-2018 04:28 PM


I keep looking and I can find anything wrong with this finish. Maybe something wrong with my eyes. I find no blue haze or any of that stuff you hear about water based finished. Maybe ignorance is bliss.

- AlaskaGuy

My gosh I love those cabinets. Just beautiful wood and your workmanship is impeccable. Regarding color, it might have something to do with the red wood that balances everything out. On some of the grayer pieces of mesquite, it was very pronounced (GF and Behlen). Other woods, like African mahogany, did fine.

-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki

View TungOil's profile

TungOil

1274 posts in 917 days


#12 posted 08-31-2018 06:57 PM

Rich- my comment is probably not as clear as it should have been. What I mean about the color cast with EM6000 is that it really has very little color and is quite close to clear. In the can it is a milky white with a very slight hint of blue. Since many solvent based finishes that we typically use (like Arm-R-Seal and Waterlox) have a strong amber tint, the Target products will look ‘blue’ by comparison.

in the image here, the top left sample is Arm-R-Seal and the bottom left is Waterlox. To my eye, but maybe not so easy to tell from the photo, the EM-6000 on the right has less amber tone to it. What you can’t tell from the image is that it also displays less chatoyance than the other two.

Hopefully that is more clear. In any case, the advantages of WB products make it worth ordering a few quarts to try on some scraps. If you like the amber tone of solvent Finishes, you can tint the EM6000 with Transtint, or put a base coat of dewaxed shellac under the EM6000.

-- The optimist says "the glass is half full". The pessimist says "the glass is half empty". The engineer says "the glass is twice as big as it needs to be"

View AandCstyle's profile

AandCstyle

3214 posts in 2679 days


#13 posted 08-31-2018 10:41 PM



If you like the amber tone of solvent Finishes, you can tint the EM6000 with Transtint, or put a base coat of dewaxed shellac under the EM6000.

Here is another option if anyone is interested. Spray a base coat of Target’s WR4000 which is a water emulsified linseed oil, then top coat with your choice of clear coats. The linseed oil gives the benefits of an oil finish without the disadvantages of one.

-- Art

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2363 posts in 2412 days


#14 posted 09-01-2018 03:55 PM

I have used a lot of em6000, em9000, and some em2000. No matter what is done underneath, shellac and or wr4000 etc, none of the wb finishes will equal the chatoyance of solvent lacquer or varnish. They can look pretty good but still not quite. Gloss has everything to do with it – as gloss goes down, the difference in chatoyance does as well, because it doesnt show through the less glossy finish, ob or wb. For a satin gloss level they look even to me, provided the wb has shellac under it.

The bluish tint is due to the way light is refracted in the finish, and wont “show” in photos. I mix transtint in, to match the project color, and it disappears. The only reason I use wb finishes is the voc’s. When finishing in winter I cant ventilate enough to use solvent precat lacquer and be safe. If voc’s arent a concern, keep using solvent finishes.

For something like a dining table, heavy use item, and a lower gloss finish, em9000 works for me over ob poly because ob poly sucks to spray, creating sandpaper surfaces everywhere with overspray. All of the Target products overspray dries in the air for easy cleanup, and the em9000 is tougher than precat lacquer in my exp.

View Rich's profile

Rich

4579 posts in 1012 days


#15 posted 09-01-2018 05:22 PM


I have used a lot of em6000, em9000, and some em2000. No matter what is done underneath, shellac and or wr4000 etc, none of the wb finishes will equal the chatoyance of solvent lacquer or varnish.

My experience exactly. But since so many LJs seem to love EM6000 I just wanted to ask.

I really appreciate all the feedback and encouragement, but I’m going to stick with my old standby Sher-Wood pre-cat lacquer. Like I said above, it’s less expensive, I can buy it a mile from my house and there are no surprises. I’ve sprayed so much of the stuff I know exactly what and what not to do, and how to fix it when I do screw up (you’d think after watching something go wrong a couple dozen times you’d stop when you saw it about to happen again…nope, not me…lol).


They can look pretty good but still not quite. Gloss has everything to do with it – as gloss goes down, the difference in chatoyance does as well, because it doesnt show through the less glossy finish, ob or wb. For a satin gloss level they look even to me, provided the wb has shellac under it.

The bluish tint is due to the way light is refracted in the finish, and wont “show” in photos. I mix transtint in, to match the project color, and it disappears. The only reason I use wb finishes is the voc’s. When finishing in winter I cant ventilate enough to use solvent precat lacquer and be safe. If voc’s arent a concern, keep using solvent finishes.

I’ve read the cloudiness and/or blue haze is due to the flattener build up with multiple coats — usually zinc oxide. Regarding VOCs, I have plenty of ventilation where I spray, so that’s not an issue.

Also, easy cleanup is touted for WB finishes, but I use my siphon gun for lacquer and can go for days without emptying and cleaning. I just stir and go. On the occasion where I do need to flush it, I just grab a spare cup, put in some acetone and spray until clean.

For full cleanup, I keep a gallon paint can of acetone and just dunk everything in there. I find that .357 and .45 caliber brass gun cleaning brushes do a good job of getting any gunk out of openings.

- OSU55


-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki

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