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Humidity and oil base top coat

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Forum topic by Robert posted 06-06-2018 01:20 PM 572 views 0 times favorited 16 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Robert

3441 posts in 1903 days


06-06-2018 01:20 PM

I’m getting ready to finish a dining table top and can’t afford to have a mishap.

Seeing that finishing is my weakest point, and reading some recent posts about finishes clouding, I’m concerned about this due to the high humidity here. I’m mostly concerned about prolonged drying time.

My plan was to spray an oil based polyurethane top coat (Arm R Seal Satin). Of course, this was supposed to happen 2 months ago, but ….

Now I’m thinking about a water based product (GF High Perf Satin). GF says thin 10% with water and spray with 1.1 – 1.3mm tip. My HVLP gun is 1.4 so I think its doable. Any tips on spraying this finish?

The top is 42×84 QSWO that will be dyed with a water based dye then a couple coats of shellac sealer. I’m trying to avoid brushing or wiping type finishes. Or should I?

Thanks, guys. I’ll be posting some pics of the project soon. I’ve got an alternative trestle base construction that is very simple and preserves expensive wood.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!


16 replies so far

View Dustin's profile

Dustin

689 posts in 1163 days


#1 posted 06-06-2018 02:08 PM

Have you considered the Target Coatings products? I’ve just started using them, but I know several other members here are also big fans. CharlesA just finished a beautiful dining table with their EM6000 water-based lacquer. I just finished a table top with the EM9000 water-based polyurethane (even with it being my first spray job, it came out very nicely).

Of course, if you’re already committed to the GF High Perf, please disregard my comments :p

-- "Ladies, if your husband says he'll get to it, he'll get to it. No need to remind him about it every 6 months."

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Robert

3441 posts in 1903 days


#2 posted 06-06-2018 03:44 PM

Thx Dustin, no I’ll check it out. I’m not committed haven’t purchased anything yet.

Wouldn’t you be a little averse to lacquer on a dining table?

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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Dustin

689 posts in 1163 days


#3 posted 06-06-2018 04:44 PM



Thx Dustin, no I ll check it out. I m not committed haven t purchased anything yet.

Wouldn t you be a little averse to lacquer on a dining table?

- rwe2156

I could very well be missing something here, but not personally, no (though I’ll note, Charles used this, I stuck with the poly). From what I can tell of their products, their wb lacquer still “burns in” to previous coats, builds nicely, and has the option of adding a cross-linker to get a more durable finish.

Plus, I don’t have a spray booth, so not having to worry about blowing up my garage (or even just stinking it up) is a huge perk to me.

Oh, one thing: I was worried about a company shipping me finishes like this due to Amazon horror stories I’ve read, but their quart and gallon cans are durable plastic with metal lids and locking clips to keep everything together. And they didn’t skimp on the packing peanuts!

-- "Ladies, if your husband says he'll get to it, he'll get to it. No need to remind him about it every 6 months."

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ColonelTravis

1976 posts in 2316 days


#4 posted 06-06-2018 05:16 PM

I see your mask photo all the time and always thought you’d be a master with the spray finishes!
I would be too scared to put lacquer on a dining table. I’ve put a hot dinner plate on a 1/4” thick mouse pad on a desk in my home office many times and have never had damage, but I’m gonna guess you don’t want a dining table full of mouse pads.

You can add a retarder to lacquer when there’s humidity problems, I know this from guitars. I would guess you can add a retarder to other things like poly?

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EarlS

2892 posts in 2770 days


#5 posted 06-06-2018 05:30 PM

I’d stay with the Arm-R-Seal. It dries fairly fast when the temperature is above 70 deg or so and I haven’t seen any clouding on the desks and such I’ve sprayed in the shop/garage. The big thing, IMO, is to let it thoroughly dry (a couple of days at least) between coats and don’t rush it.

I’m not a fan of the GF water based stuff. I spent a lot more time sanding and it doesn’t seem to cover as well or provide the build up that the oil based finish does. I threw it away after using it once because it raised the grain so much, even with 220 grit before spraying, and it took 3 coats before the grain stopped coming up. The overall look was still splotchy after 5 coats where it hadn’t penetrated the wood equally. It also made a bigger mess with overspray than the oil based Arm-R-Seal did.

Those are my results, others might have a different experience with both products.

-- Earl "I'm a pessamist - generally that increases the chance that things will turn out better than expected"

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Robert

3441 posts in 1903 days


#6 posted 06-07-2018 01:41 PM



I see your mask photo all the time and always thought you d be a master with the spray finishes!
I would be too scared to put lacquer on a dining table. I ve put a hot dinner plate on a 1/4” thick mouse pad on a desk in my home office many times and have never had damage, but I m gonna guess you don t want a dining table full of mouse pads.

You can add a retarder to lacquer when there s humidity problems, I know this from guitars. I would guess you can add a retarder to other things like poly?

- ColonelTravis

Ha. No Col. that is just a dust mask, if you look closely no cartridges.

That was actually a joke I played on my son sent him that pic with the caption “I am your father.”

I’ve decided to go with a WB top coat. I’ve had more than one person recommend the Target products.

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

View ravensrock's profile

ravensrock

507 posts in 2065 days


#7 posted 06-07-2018 02:06 PM

I’ve been using GF High Performance lately on many of my builds including a set of coffeeshop tables. I still like Arm-R-Seal a lot but when I was researching durable restaurant table top finishes High Performance was one that came up. I use my Earlax Spraystation and it sprays fine right out of the can.

-- Dave, York, PA, Wildside Woodworking

View Dustin's profile

Dustin

689 posts in 1163 days


#8 posted 06-07-2018 02:13 PM


I see your mask photo all the time and always thought you d be a master with the spray finishes!
I would be too scared to put lacquer on a dining table. I ve put a hot dinner plate on a 1/4” thick mouse pad on a desk in my home office many times and have never had damage, but I m gonna guess you don t want a dining table full of mouse pads.

You can add a retarder to lacquer when there s humidity problems, I know this from guitars. I would guess you can add a retarder to other things like poly?

- ColonelTravis
Ha. No Col. that is just a dust mask, if you look closely no cartridges.

That was actually a joke I played on my son sent him that pic with the caption “I am your father.”

I ve decided to go with a WB top coat. I ve had more than one person recommend the Target products.

- rwe2156

I think you’ll be really happy. FYI, they have a promo code out currently for 20% off with code WB20.

-- "Ladies, if your husband says he'll get to it, he'll get to it. No need to remind him about it every 6 months."

View bilyo's profile

bilyo

746 posts in 1525 days


#9 posted 06-08-2018 02:20 AM

You have apparently made your decision, but I’ll say this for future reference. I live in S. Alabama and have used oil based and lacquer finishes a lot with no problems with clouding. I usually apply them by hand; no spray (except for rattle cans).

A question for me and maybe for you too; aren’t sprayed finishes more sensitive to humidity with regard to clouding? I think I read somewhere that water based finishes are better for spraying in high humidity conditions.

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2363 posts in 2412 days


#10 posted 06-08-2018 09:05 PM

Clouding of solvent lacquer and shellac are temp and humidity dependent. Above about 70-75 F usually not an issue unless humidity is in rain forest range. WB is better since the solvents flash slower. The biggest issue I have with spraying ob poly like ars or mw is the slow dry time – overspray turns everything it touches to sandpaper because the atomized droplets stay wet, unlike solvent lacquer, shellac, and wb finishes which dry enough before contact to be dust to sweep up.

Ive had great success with Target products, but I havent used the GF so cant compare. A big issue with any wb finish is they do not have the same refractance of light as ob finishes and will not provide any chatoyance or tiger eye effect, hence look pretty drab in comparison. A way around this is ti use products under the finish that do, and your plan to use shellac will work very well, thats what I do. Target also has a wb stain base that is an oil emulsion, WR4000, that provides chatoyance like blo but dries for top coat in 1-2 hrs and doesnt have adhesion issues like blo with wb.

For a dining table the em9000 with xlinker would be my choice – the lacquer with xlinker may hold up but the poly is more scratch and chemical resistant per the website, I havent done any of my own tests. I typically do tops with em9000 and other areas with em6000 with excellent matching.

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bilyo

746 posts in 1525 days


#11 posted 06-08-2018 10:56 PM

OSU55, Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

View John Smith's profile (online now)

John Smith

1889 posts in 585 days


#12 posted 06-09-2018 12:00 PM

RW – there is a recent article on Heat and Humidity on the PaintTalk forum
that is appropriate for most finishes. It is a good read for people like us that are in this
situation. especially now that our hot rainy season has begun .
http://www.painttalk.com/articles/2018/06/its-not-the-heat-working-in-high-humidity/

.

.

-- I am a painter. That's what I do. I paint things --

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bilyo

746 posts in 1525 days


#13 posted 06-09-2018 01:46 PM



RW – there is a recent article on Heat and Humidity on the PaintTalk forum
that is appropriate for most finishes. It is a good read for people like us that are in this
situation. especially now that our hot rainy season has begun .
http://www.painttalk.com/articles/2018/06/its-not-the-heat-working-in-high-humidity/

- John Smith

John. Thanks for the informative article. However, who put in those totally irrelevant links? ;>)

View Robert's profile

Robert

3441 posts in 1903 days


#14 posted 06-09-2018 02:07 PM

OSU55, thx for that info. I did not know about the chatoyance issue. Guess its just one more thing to be concerned about as if this project isnt’ already caused enough insomnia – thanks alot! LOL

On the QSWO my plan is wb dye, then a couple coats of shellac, light sanding, then a gel stain followed by top coat. I’ve experimented quite a bit with different types of stains, dyes and this what I’ve come up with. On some test pieces is seems to do pretty well with Med Brown WB dye and Mahogany gel stain.

The top is rimmed with walnut so, I’m looking at a darker tone for the oak, but it seems the flake is more prominent with a lighter dye stain, so I’m still not settled on that.

I actually found alcohol based dye seems to pop the figure better. I tried Behlens light brown but its actually too red, so I abandoned it.

Would it be better to do a couple coats of gloss, then satin as the final coat?

Dustin, I’ll definitely use that coupon.

I’ll be doing some testing on the bottom ;-).

-- Everything is a prototype thats why its one of a kind!!

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OSU55

2363 posts in 2412 days


#15 posted 06-09-2018 07:31 PM

Gloss then satin – depends on the amount of film build you want. If you are planning 3-4 moderate to heavy coats of wb, probably so. I have the flattener from Target and they gave me the mix ratios for gloss levels, so I keep gloss products and mix the desired sheen.

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