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ANOTHER HF DC UPGRADE QUESTION....OR TWO...OR THREE

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Forum topic by AlmostRetired posted 03-14-2018 07:11 PM 1553 views 0 times favorited 12 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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AlmostRetired

220 posts in 1320 days


03-14-2018 07:11 PM

I know everyone has read a hundred times but I was hoping to get the most up to date info I can for the topic.

While I am deployed I have read tons of stuff and have ordered a small pile of parts, tools, lumber, etc waiting for me in my new garage workshop (work in progress). I already had the newer version of the 2HP HF DC. I purchased the Super Dust Deputy with the 6-INCH outlet and 5-INCH inlet. I wish that I ha waited for the XL but it’s too late and I am already $150 invested so I am gonna try and work with it. I also have the Rikon impeller, delivered after 2 months of waiting…not that big of a deal since I’ve been gone the whole time.

I have read the article from GreyHouseStudios (http://www.grayhousestudio.com/harbor-freight-dust-collector-mod/) 100 times and was hoping for feedback on a few things.

1. If this setup works so well with the impeller feeding right into a short duct directly to a filter, why do so many people use the stock parts to set the filter?

2. With the SDD only having a 5-inch inlet, will the setup accept 6-inch PVC? Can I modify the SDD inlet to be 6 inches…similar to the housing on the HF DC impeller? I found these guys after searching these forums and the prices aren’t too bad. http://blastgateco.com/Spiral-Pipe-and-Fittings.php

3. Aside from Wynn Environmental filters, what other filters are available to make a setup work like the GreHouse one?

Thanks for any feedback anyone has.

Roger



12 replies so far

View fivecodys's profile

fivecodys

1559 posts in 2242 days


#1 posted 03-14-2018 08:19 PM

First of all…..Thank you for your service!

I just finished my DC upgrade using the SDD.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/256729

I’m not sure how you could adapt the SDD to accept a 6” duct. All I could see you doing is reducing down to 5” duct right at the inlet. Not ideal I know.

When I spoke with Oneida they told me that this unit was designed to use 5” duct work and so that’s what I did.

I’m not any help on the filter part of your question because I vent outside instead of through a filter.

Chem

-- A bad day woodworking is still better than a good day working.

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1243 posts in 2601 days


#2 posted 03-14-2018 08:23 PM

I can’t directly answer all your questions, but one major advantage to keeping the HF separator and bag under the canister filter is that when (not if) you dill up your chip bucket and cyclone because you didn’t notice it getting full, you can see stuff start to drop out in to the bag. Otherwise you pack your filter full of chips and dust.

Also you can use whatever adapters you want to size down from 6inch duct to 5inch. But even with the impeller an cyclone I am not sure the machine will move enough air for a 6inch duct to make sense. Perhaps you have done the research to be sure it will.

My HF collector is the old one, and I use the trash can lid type separator and a Wynn filter, with the HF plastic bag in place on the back end.

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View Woodknack's profile

Woodknack

13011 posts in 2986 days


#3 posted 03-14-2018 08:58 PM

Serious question, it seems like a lot of effort and expenditure to hot rod a low end DC, wouldn’t it be simpler and probably about as cheap to buy a better DC to begin with?

-- Rick M, http://thewoodknack.blogspot.com/

View ArtMann's profile

ArtMann

1462 posts in 1422 days


#4 posted 03-14-2018 10:23 PM

I am also doubtful that the HF motor will sustain adequate velocity to keep the dust from settling in a 6 inch duct. A whole lot of people are using 5 inch duct with the HF, even with a bigger fan.

View PatrickC40's profile

PatrickC40

4 posts in 687 days


#5 posted 03-15-2018 02:03 PM



Serious question, it seems like a lot of effort and expenditure to hot rod a low end DC, wouldn t it be simpler and probably about as cheap to buy a better DC to begin with?

- Woodknack

Simpler? god yes. But I don’t think there’s anything comparable pricewise to the HF DC.

Aftermarket cyclone – Any single stage dust collector will benefit from it.
Aftermarket Filter – Any single stage dust collector will benefit from it.

It’s a 160$ DC (after 20% coupon) , with ~115ish upgraded impeller. ~ 275 total.

closest thing I’ve found is the 1.5HP for 350+ shipping. and that gets mixed reviews.

View CaptainKlutz's profile (online now)

CaptainKlutz

2229 posts in 2100 days


#6 posted 03-15-2018 11:42 PM

Answers to questions:

#1 – ducting is expensive, old parts are cheap.

#2 – keep it 5”, as 6” the velocity in pipe drops too low and dust collection will suffer.

#3 – Grizzly, Oneida, Jet, and others sell canister filters that will work. They are designed to upgrade old bag dust collectors, and that is another answer to #1. You can also use the Kentucky “redneck” solution, which is a stack of 6-12 automotive air filters bolted together.

———-

These HF upgrade threads are becoming more consistent as time passes. Questions on what is best design this year, degrades into a conversation about cost .vs. benefit compared to current generation cyclone collectors.

Have been watching this debate for years, waiting for right time to convert my old 2HP Delta unit to a cyclone, but have never been convinced to make the plunge. Why?

10 years ago, >5HP cyclone was unheard of in hobby wood working shop as they cost $2000+ and more than most power tools.
= Creating a hobby cyclone from 2HP HF unit + cyclone + impeller + filter was only way most could afford to own cyclone dust collector, but you still have to spend ~$650 .vs. regular dust collector $150-$200.

6-8 years ago, 3HP cyclones became commercially available from more than 1-2 sources, but still too expensive ($1500-$2000) for average part time woodworker.
= Creating a hobby cyclone from HF unit + cyclone + impeller + filter was decent savings over buying commercial, but still had to spend ~$650

Last 2-3 years more manufacturers are making cyclone dust collectors, and they even make 1.5-2.0 HP versions.
= Now the cost to build HF based cyclone ($650-$700 without cost of a stand) is much closer to cost of buying a similar commercial unit ($900-$1200). Making it worse, the commercial units come with $100 remote switch as well?

My hypothesis is that since internet has taught everyone just how much a small 2 HP hobby wood working cyclone cost to build from cheap Asian produced parts, and these build your own costs are now 60%+ of cost of commercial, we have finally reaching a monetary equilibrium.
This equilibrium point where you have to ask, is it really worth a couple hundred dollars (or <25% of total price) to deal with hassle of building your own?

When there was a thousand dollars in savings the answer was yes, but the answer is not same now that prices have dropped.

When you couple the make .vs buy debate with discussion on volume of air needed to create a fine dust capable stationary dust collection system (aka Clearview 5HP min recommendation) .vs. smaller portable one tool at a time 2HP system; things get messy and total chaos breaks out.

Best luck with new dust collector!

-- I'm an engineer not a woodworker, but I can randomly find useful tools and furniture inside a pile of lumber!

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1477 posts in 1829 days


#7 posted 03-15-2018 11:57 PM


Answers to questions: #1 – ducting is expensive, old parts are cheap. #2 – keep it 5”, as 6” the velocity in pipe drops too low and dust collection will suffer. #3 – Grizzly, Oneida, Jet, and others sell canister filters that will work. They are designed to upgrade old bag dust collectors, and that is another answer to #1. You can also use the Kentucky “redneck” solution, which is a stack of 6-12 automotive air filters bolted together.

———-

These HF upgrade threads are becoming more consistent as time passes. Questions on what is best design this year, degrades into a conversation about cost .vs. benefit compared to current generation cyclone collectors.

Have been watching this debate for years, waiting for right time to convert my old 2HP Delta unit to a cyclone, but have never been convinced to make the plunge. Why?

10 years ago, >5HP cyclone was unheard of in hobby wood working shop as they cost $2000+ and more than most power tools.
= Creating a hobby cyclone from 2HP HF unit + cyclone + impeller + filter was only way most could afford to own cyclone dust collector, but you still have to spend ~$650 .vs. regular dust collector $150-$200.

6-8 years ago, 3HP cyclones became commercially available from more than 1-2 sources, but still too expensive ($1500-$2000) for average part time woodworker.
= Creating a hobby cyclone from HF unit + cyclone + impeller + filter was decent savings over buying commercial, but still had to spend ~$650

Last 2-3 years more manufacturers are making cyclone dust collectors, and they even make 1.5-2.0 HP versions.
= Now the cost to build HF based cyclone ($650-$700 without cost of a stand) is much closer to cost of buying a similar commercial unit ($900-$1200). Making it worse, the commercial units come with $100 remote switch as well?

My hypothesis is that since internet has taught everyone just how much a small 2 HP hobby wood working cyclone cost to build from cheap Asian produced parts, and these build your own costs are now 60%+ of cost of commercial, we have finally reaching a monetary equilibrium.
This equilibrium point where you have to ask, is it really worth a couple hundred dollars (or 2HP system; things get messy and total chaos breaks out.

Best luck with new dust collector!

- CaptainKlutz

Hey Klutz. The thing that people tend to write off is their time to do all these upgrades. You’re right, the prices and availability keep going down and more and more actors enter the market. If I added up all the tinkering I did with harbor freight systems to try to get them to work in my shop, I could have bought the Clearvue CV1800 with no filters for about the same price once time is factored in, which I ended up doing.

I don’t know if you saw it but I had parts for one of my HF machines with an Oneida Dust Deputy and I should have just bit the bullet to begin with.

I think it comes down to why we are woodworkers though. If it wasn’t for the challenge and fun, we’d be buying all our furniture at Ikea and not making it. I think we go down the same line of thinking on things like dust collection and set the whole cost problem to the side.

View AZWoody's profile

AZWoody

1477 posts in 1829 days


#8 posted 03-16-2018 12:15 AM


Serious question, it seems like a lot of effort and expenditure to hot rod a low end DC, wouldn t it be simpler and probably about as cheap to buy a better DC to begin with?

- Woodknack

Simpler? god yes. But I don t think there s anything comparable pricewise to the HF DC.

Aftermarket cyclone – Any single stage dust collector will benefit from it.
Aftermarket Filter – Any single stage dust collector will benefit from it.

It s a 160$ DC (after 20% coupon) , with ~115ish upgraded impeller. ~ 275 total.

closest thing I ve found is the 1.5HP for 350+ shipping. and that gets mixed reviews.

- PatrickC40

On that page he said the parts to do everything was $550. A pre-built 1.5hp cyclone, which is what the HF really is start at $868 if you get a Shop fox and everything is built and designed already as a unit.

I looked at his page before and he has one of the best modified setups I had seen. I did some of what he did when playing around with the HF mods when I was first working on my shop. He doesn’t say how much time he spent but add it in and you’re either at the price of a new machine or past it.

If you do go the upgrade route, I would consider using a smaller container though around 30 gallons. A 55 gallon drum full of sawdust is extremely heavy and would be pretty difficult to move around and emptying.

On my 5hp clearvue, I keep 2 metal 30 gallon trash cans. One empty and ready to change out when one gets full.

View Dustin's profile

Dustin

705 posts in 1346 days


#9 posted 03-16-2018 01:00 PM



Answers to questions:

#1 – ducting is expensive, old parts are cheap.

#2 – keep it 5”, as 6” the velocity in pipe drops too low and dust collection will suffer.

#3 – Grizzly, Oneida, Jet, and others sell canister filters that will work. They are designed to upgrade old bag dust collectors, and that is another answer to #1. You can also use the Kentucky “redneck” solution, which is a stack of 6-12 automotive air filters bolted together.

———-

These HF upgrade threads are becoming more consistent as time passes. Questions on what is best design this year, degrades into a conversation about cost .vs. benefit compared to current generation cyclone collectors.

Have been watching this debate for years, waiting for right time to convert my old 2HP Delta unit to a cyclone, but have never been convinced to make the plunge. Why?

10 years ago, >5HP cyclone was unheard of in hobby wood working shop as they cost $2000+ and more than most power tools.
= Creating a hobby cyclone from 2HP HF unit + cyclone + impeller + filter was only way most could afford to own cyclone dust collector, but you still have to spend ~$650 .vs. regular dust collector $150-$200.

6-8 years ago, 3HP cyclones became commercially available from more than 1-2 sources, but still too expensive ($1500-$2000) for average part time woodworker.
= Creating a hobby cyclone from HF unit + cyclone + impeller + filter was decent savings over buying commercial, but still had to spend ~$650

Last 2-3 years more manufacturers are making cyclone dust collectors, and they even make 1.5-2.0 HP versions.
= Now the cost to build HF based cyclone ($650-$700 without cost of a stand) is much closer to cost of buying a similar commercial unit ($900-$1200). Making it worse, the commercial units come with $100 remote switch as well?

My hypothesis is that since internet has taught everyone just how much a small 2 HP hobby wood working cyclone cost to build from cheap Asian produced parts, and these build your own costs are now 60%+ of cost of commercial, we have finally reaching a monetary equilibrium.
This equilibrium point where you have to ask, is it really worth a couple hundred dollars (or <25>

I think this is a pretty good economics analysis of what’s happening with these units, but there’s one more thing that I think entices people to the HF, and that’s the ability to not drop all of the cash up front. I worked with mine stock for a few months before adding a trash can separator and wall-mounting it. Sometime later I added a Long Ranger remote. And just a few months back, I swapped out the trash can separator for a used SDD. About a month after that, I upgraded to a larger impeller, then shortly thereafter piped my system.

Saving up to buy everything you need for a given component/system/tool at once is ideal, but there are a lot of us who piece-meal it as we go.

-- "Ladies, if your husband says he'll get to it, he'll get to it. No need to remind him about it every 6 months."

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1243 posts in 2601 days


#10 posted 03-16-2018 02:43 PM

Time = money. People with money value their time. People with less money value their money.

Everyday we decide if we give up our time to save some money, or spend the money to get some time. So while it is fair to say that a $600 HF conversion really costs as much as a $800 commercial unit when you consider your time, the cash flow is not the same. And to many that is important.

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View fivecodys's profile

fivecodys

1559 posts in 2242 days


#11 posted 03-16-2018 11:52 PM


Time = money. People with money value their time. People with less money value their money.

Everyday we decide if we give up our time to save some money, or spend the money to get some time. So while it is fair to say that a $600 HF conversion really costs as much as a $800 commercial unit when you consider your time, the cash flow is not the same. And to many that is important.

Brian

- bbasiaga

Yep. For me it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed the research and all the responses to my queries on this forum.

-- A bad day woodworking is still better than a good day working.

View guitarchitect's profile

guitarchitect

43 posts in 3008 days


#12 posted 04-05-2018 04:56 PM



Time = money. People with money value their time. People with less money value their money.

Everyday we decide if we give up our time to save some money, or spend the money to get some time. So while it is fair to say that a $600 HF conversion really costs as much as a $800 commercial unit when you consider your time, the cash flow is not the same. And to many that is important.

Brian

- bbasiaga

Exactly! Hobbyist time is free – and anyone measuring it should only do so relative to how that TIME would be spent otherwise. I live in Canada and everything is more expensive. I could mod my existing DC on weekends and in evenings, or I have to find a way to justify spending $2,000 to get the same performance. Or, I have to make enough profit from my hobby to pay for something (the route I typically take if I can).

It’s also tough because it’s hard to track the ever-changing landscape, as CaptainKlutz detailed above. If I google “cyclone separator dust collection” I’ll find articles from 2008 to 2014 all detailing expensive systems that are way out of my reach, and a lot of comparisons that leave out new products that a lot of people might benefit from (like the Mini Gorilla or Dust Cobra – i didn’t even know the SDD was an option until i read this thread just now!) There isn’t a single resource which brings all of the performance data together because there are so many variables, so in the end you get an enormous amount of information with little means of filtering… so you decide if someone’s idea is worth your time based on the perceived benefit and cost savings. It’s a pretty vicious cycle for anyone that lives a DIY lifestyle! :)

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