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New grizzly segemented cutterheads?

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Forum topic by Scott C. posted 01-01-2017 01:43 PM 3051 views 0 times favorited 14 replies Add to Favorites Watch
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Scott C.

162 posts in 3334 days


01-01-2017 01:43 PM

I just got the 2017 catalog and it looks like grizzly is now selling a Byrd clone. The inserts are a mounted at a shear angle like the Byrd’s, rather then straight on like the older grizzly segmented cutterheads. Based on the pictures, it looks like the grizzly inserts don’t have as much clearance under the cutter compared to the Byrds and still use a different size (2mm vs 2.5mm for the Byrds), but at $150 cheaper for a 15” they certainly are tempting.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Helical-Spiral-Cutterhead-for-Planers/T27695

-- measure twice, cut once, swear and start over.


14 replies so far

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

7292 posts in 3776 days


#1 posted 01-01-2017 02:51 PM

That’s interesting, for years Papa Griz has said there was no noticeable difference between the shearing cut and his old design head and that was supported by a few magazine reviews, including one by Glen Huey. I guess he just couldn’t convince the broader market of that.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View AHuxley's profile

AHuxley

874 posts in 4604 days


#2 posted 01-01-2017 10:40 PM



That s interesting, for years Papa Griz has said there was no noticeable difference between the shearing cut and his old design head and that was supported by a few magazine reviews, including one by Glen Huey. I guess he just couldn t convince the broader market of that.

- Fred Hargis

Note the FFW #223 test of segmented cutter heads found the shear cut heads superior in finish to the Grizzly head. Those included the Laguna, Byrd and Jet shear cutting heads.

View 06066's profile

06066

3 posts in 1793 days


#3 posted 01-01-2017 11:18 PM

They have had these for awhile!
They are also a good deal, i bought one for my Delta 15” planer and my Powermatic 6” jointer.
They work great! This inserts are made by a company called Ceratizzit and you can buy replacements from MSC.
Once installed you dont have to mess with settings or alignments again, a nice feature.
Don’t worry about clearances or cutting angles on these heads thats a lot of hype, its a great upgrade if you can afford it.
I have found that you still have to get the machine marks out, they are different marks. Instead of washboard style ridges you get lines running with the grain. Much easier to get out IMHO.
They may be less noisy not really noticeable, will definitely last longer and seem to be better in cross grain woods.

-- Rule No1, dont bleed on the project.

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Trouts

3 posts in 667 days


#4 posted 02-01-2020 10:28 PM

Hi Scott,
I am currently looking at these spiral/helical cutterheads myself for the 15” Jet planer I own and purchased about 15 years ago. Your original post/question does not appear to have been properly answered from what I am seeing in this older thread. I am still perplexed by the differences between the Grizzly T27695 with 75 15×15x2.5mm inserts, now selling at $595 plus $24 shipping and $24 tax) and the Byrd Shelix 7768 (also with 75 15×15x2.5mm inserts, $730.95 inc shipping but an additional $64 tax through Amazon via Grizzly). So that is about $115 difference. Based on what I can glean though the photos, I agree that the Byrd seems to have more clearance underneath the inserts themselves. And, is the angle they are oriented the same, which would affect the shearing action itself???? To further confuse matters, eBay has a Canadian company called Sheartak that offers one for $599 (plus $70 shipping and $52 tax) but has 80 inserts and fully describes its version as completely shear action, although it comes in ultimately at about $46 more than the Grizzly, but $74 less than the Byrd. This is a confusing situation and I have yet to find anything through the Internet that investigates and rates these three options side-by-side. I am sure all three are great, but when spending almost as much as my entire planer cost me several years ago, one wants to not regret their decision. My temptation at this point is to try the Sheartak based on some customer feedback on their eBay website. Did you or anyone else here come to any conclusions sinec the original 2017 post?

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

5021 posts in 2777 days


#5 posted 02-02-2020 02:12 AM


Hi Scott,
I am currently looking at these spiral/helical cutterheads myself for the 15” Jet planer I own and purchased about 15 years ago. Your original post/question does not appear to have been properly answered from what I am seeing in this older thread. I am still perplexed by the differences between the Grizzly T27695 with 75 15×15x2.5mm inserts, now selling at $595 plus $24 shipping and $24 tax) and the Byrd Shelix 7768 (also with 75 15×15x2.5mm inserts, $730.95 inc shipping but an additional $64 tax through Amazon via Grizzly). So that is about $115 difference. Based on what I can glean though the photos, I agree that the Byrd seems to have more clearance underneath the inserts themselves. And, is the angle they are oriented the same, which would affect the shearing action itself???? To further confuse matters, eBay has a Canadian company called Sheartak that offers one for $599 (plus $70 shipping and $52 tax) but has 80 inserts and fully describes its version as completely shear action, although it comes in ultimately at about $46 more than the Grizzly, but $74 less than the Byrd. This is a confusing situation and I have yet to find anything through the Internet that investigates and rates these three options side-by-side. I am sure all three are great, but when spending almost as much as my entire planer cost me several years ago, one wants to not regret their decision. My temptation at this point is to try the Sheartak based on some customer feedback on their eBay website. Did you or anyone else here come to any conclusions sinec the original 2017 post?

- Trouts

Hmm, not too hard to find some data?

Look closely at the heads and you will see the differences:

- Byrd head has the cutters slanted at angle for shear cut

- Grizzly sells several difference internal designs,
Tawian made Helix layout giving a shear cut,
Spiral head with edge parallel to cut surface acting more like a straight blade.
Grizzly has offered replacement 15” heads with 72, 74, 75, & 80 cutters. Some are discontinued.

- Sheartak is Canadian company, acting as north American distributor of a Chinese mfg. Have the mfg bookmark some where but it alludes me right now. Sheartak sell both spiral heads and Helix cut heads. Some of their heads have different radius which changes the cut angles.

Have considered a new spiral/helix head myself. Have yet found no one has done a complete side by side comparison on performance for all the varieties. Though there is at least one spiral .vs. shellix comparison I read. Only hard conclusion was difference in current draw and HP required for helix shear cut angle being higher than current/HP required for spiral head. The cut quality on limited sample appear same with naked eye inspection.
IMHO – the testing was incomplete. Segmented heads are prone to creating lines are edges of cutters, which don’t show until you attempt to stain. Shear cut is supposedly more prone to scooping or lines, than spiral straight edge in my reading. The previous tests also didn’t measure differences in surface planarity or scoop out that happens with some woods.

Hope this helps.
YMMV

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

View therealSteveN's profile

therealSteveN

9215 posts in 1857 days


#6 posted 02-02-2020 03:49 AM



That s interesting, for years Papa Griz has said there was no noticeable difference between the shearing cut and his old design head and that was supported by a few magazine reviews, including one by Glen Huey. I guess he just couldn t convince the broader market of that.

- Fred Hargis

Fred I have owned several 735’s with Byrd’s on them, and now own a 15” Griz, and the 8” Jointer both with the Griz older style head on them, and I’ll be darned if I can tell any difference between the cuts. Take a deep cut with any of them, and wet it down, and you will see a series of little scallops. Make a light cut with any of them, and it’s like a baby’s butt, sans the dimples. Smmmmmmoooooooooothhhhh…

-- Think safe, be safe

View Scott C.'s profile

Scott C.

162 posts in 3334 days


#7 posted 02-03-2020 02:21 AM

I ended up with the Byrd head, purchased from Grizzly, through Ebay. Used a 15% ebay coupon, which was the deciding factor. The grizzly knock off got expensive due to trade tariffs.

Bottom line: buy whatever segmented cutterhead you can get the best deal on. The differences between them are small and any one of them will more than satisfy. I still get some tear-out with especially figured grain or knots, but a little rub down with water or alcohol before a pass gets 95% clean.

Make sure you replace the bearings or other worn parts as it will be a full tear down of the machine. Buy decent bearings, Japanese ones are a good value. Take your time, clean it, lube it, tune it up good.

-- measure twice, cut once, swear and start over.

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

4130 posts in 3081 days


#8 posted 02-03-2020 04:11 AM

Anyone know who makes these helical Heads. I’m done with bryd head and the shallow cuts ..Plus the last time I rotated them six cracked.
I think a new design is in order

-- Aj

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

5021 posts in 2777 days


#9 posted 02-03-2020 04:57 AM

Think the first picture is from a European combo machine. Can’t find a link to the mfg, but keep looking.

Dongguan Guangyuan Woodworking Machinery Accessories Co., Ltd. appears to produce the 1st cutter head.
Livter brand in China produces similar carbide cutter heads for shapers.

Number two is General International magnum cutter head. https://general.ca

Woodtek used to import a segmented head with cutters mounted in ‘V’ pattern.
https://woodworker.com/fullpres.asp?PARTNUM=120-041&LARGEVIEW=ON
Believe Hermance Machinery in PA was first with design?

If you want other options:

Powermatic has straight blade in spiral configuration:
http://www.powermatic.com/us/en/p/m15-k3-hss-knife-set-for-model-15s-3-/708816

There is also the Tersa Knive system:
https://tersaknives.com/pages/tersa-planer-head

Felder/SCM created one to overcome the depth limitation on Byrd:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2012/08/24/new-felderhammer-segmented-cutterhead-might-be-best-on-market

So many options, so little comparison data. :-)

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

4130 posts in 3081 days


#10 posted 02-03-2020 05:10 AM

I think I’m going to stay away from the insert heads with a face bevel .
That’s some good research you did is that your day job?
I think one of the heads is fr9m a Iron wood jointer made in Taiwan.

-- Aj

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

5021 posts in 2777 days


#11 posted 02-03-2020 10:15 AM


..
That’s some good research you did is that your day job?
I think one of the heads is fr9m a Iron wood jointer made in Taiwan.
- Aj2

Day job? No. Don’t have one of those at moment.

Hate to admit it, but I was cog in giant capitalist machine of finding lowest cost manufacturing that made off shore outsourcing happen for decades. :-(
Spent significant time finding, developing, and working with overseas companies for custom equipment all over the world. Have visited many hundreds of factories, so many I forget more names than I remember. Which means: Equipment manufacturing companies are easy to find where you know where to look. My old day job helped me develop a strong search Chi, and taught me the value of instant text translation in browser.

Another factor is Taiwan and China government have Wood Working Industry advocate organizations like WMIA and WMMA in US, that actually produces an equipment sourcing guide book for potential new customers. Mine are out of date, but still useful.

When Chiu Ting Machinery (Geetech) factory guidebook listing has pictures showing lines of mustard, white, and 2 shades of green equipment all lined up for export, information is simple to see even with names blurred out.
Harvey Industries in China removed all the White/Mustard/Black band saws and lathes from their marketing literature when they opened a US division last year. LOL

Also the tax people force everyone to keep immaculate records, and people who collect the data for Treasury, they sell it: just like Facebook, Twitter, Google, Yahoo, and Bing; collects and sells your personal data. The only secrets in equipment mfg world are things never shipped overseas. :-)

So, Ironwood Machinery?

Ironwood > Brand name for Stiles Machinery. Stiles buys machines from Makor in Italy, Henien in Japan, and LeaderMac Machinery in Taichung Taiwan. LeaderMac has been big provider of large/HD Industrial Shapers, Planers, and Jointers for many decades. Cabinets on Stiles also show resemblance to shapers/jointers from Chang Iron in Taichung Taiwan too. Chang Iron produces spiral/helix cutter heads in house including the tilted style above for internal and external use. So may have found the source? Maybe not, need to call or visit to know for sure.

Took me more time to type up Ironwood summary, then find the information in my ‘Rolodex’. :-)

Cheers!

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, Doom, despair, agony on me… - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

5417 posts in 3271 days


#12 posted 02-03-2020 11:45 AM

I think the second cutter head is a Northfield Woodworking Machinery Large Diameter Helical Cutter Head. That exact picture is on their website.

I use Google image search to try and find out where the pics come from.

View Trouts's profile

Trouts

3 posts in 667 days


#13 posted 02-03-2020 09:47 PM



I ended up with the Byrd head, purchased from Grizzly, through Ebay. Used a 15% ebay coupon, which was the deciding factor. The grizzly knock off got expensive due to trade tariffs.

Bottom line: buy whatever segmented cutterhead you can get the best deal on. The differences between them are small and any one of them will more than satisfy. I still get some tear-out with especially figured grain or knots, but a little rub down with water or alcohol before a pass gets 95% clean.

Make sure you replace the bearings or other worn parts as it will be a full tear down of the machine. Buy decent bearings, Japanese ones are a good value. Take your time, clean it, lube it, tune it up good.

- Scott C.


View Trouts's profile

Trouts

3 posts in 667 days


#14 posted 02-03-2020 10:19 PM

Good advice, so thanks. I decided to go with the Sheartak because of the total of 80 inserts, although I’m not sure that will make any difference. Also, both the eBay comments and Sheartak’s website testimonials all give very positive reviews. Interesting that CaptainKluz’s comments mentioned that Sheartak is using Chinese-made manufacturing, so I hope that isn’t going to be an issue. Seems that most of best foreign-made Asian stuff comes from Taiwan. Replacing the cutterhead definitely seems to be rather complicated and a two-person job, so i am not going to attempt it myself until my son gets back from his military duty in about a month. Consequently, it may be a at least a couple months before I can post any comments about performance of the Sheartak. I was wondering about the Japanese bearings, so I appreciate the comment. I will go with either the Naichi or SKF brand.

I have a Grizzly Taiwan-made cutterhead (H7653) on my 6” jointer and it has the straight-ahead inserts; I use it only for edge cuts on stock generally less than 2” wide and it seems fine. However, I wanted to try the angle-cut on my planer given that most opinions say they do a better job on figured or complex grain, although many people seems to be happy with the results the straight-ahead configured inserts helix cutters produce. Time will tell.

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