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Carbide vs. HSS tools

5K views 31 replies 20 participants last post by  MrRon 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am new to turning, but recently I acquired a small H.F. lathe. I also got some of the H.F. steel (not HSS) lathe tools which need constant resharpening. So now I am debating whether I should invest in some carbide tools, or get a CBN grinding wheel and some HSS tools. If you add the cost of the wheel and the tools, it is about the same as the carbide tools are alone. What do you suggest I do and why?
 
#2 ·
Carl Jacobson recently did a video on this …

I personally prefer HSS tools … I get cleaner cuts with them. I do use carbides for some situations, mostly roughing out bowls and hollowing vessels.
 
#5 ·
carbide tools, or get a CBN

- eflanders
Given an either or … CBN. I like carbide for roughing and for very hard, abrasive, woods like ipe, cumaru; they are also good for brass and aluminum. But you'll get a better finish with steel tools and gouges are faster at roughing than carbide, imo.
 
#8 ·
These guys pretty well covered it. Carbide is harder and will keep it's edge longer. There's always a trade-off though and in the case of carbide, it's sharpness. Because it's so hard, it's also brittle and the grain structure prevents getting as close to a zero-radius edge as HSS.
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
The only point not brought up is initial cost of carbide tools & cutter replacement over HSS tools. Yes can certainly buy some steel and make your own carbide tools and save a few bucks but cutters & replacements not cheap.

You can touch up those non-HSS tools you have now by hand with a stone. A bench grinder or belt sander would be faster. Just don't buy your grinder at HF they don't seem to last.

Hardest thing for me was getting the same bevel angle at the grinder so bought intermediate Wolverine jig set. Lot of people start out with the Basic Set! I can freehand sharpen now but still use my jig. You can find Wolverine systems at many places but prices about the same.

http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=packard&Product_Code=142629&Category_Code=sharp-wss

There are other sharpening jigs on the market today and lot of people make their own. I made several jigs before biting the bullet and picked up Wolverine system.

Think we have someone here that uses a Wolverine system on their belt sander, but that's above my pay grade!
 
#10 ·
It is amazing how fast turning costs add up. Yes, Sorby tools are great and expensive. All of the Wolverine jigs are not cheap and the same for CBN wheels.

Turning is fun but you can spend $$$$.

I posted a project of the 4 carbide tools that I made and they were less than one Sorby tool. I also have some old Craftsman turning tools that work fine and sharpen them on my Worksharp and use diamond salivary disks on it. I get a pretty sharp tool that works well.

The bottom line question is how much you have to spend on turning.
 
#11 ·
I only have used carbide, made my own tools so it wasn't that expensive, bough my cutter from captain eddie. One good thing about them is the learning curve is pretty quick and easy. I really want to use traditional tools but haven't, been nervous about trying to figure out how to use them and sharpen them. One thing I've noticed about watching guys use traditional tools, besides a cleaner cut, looks like they're a lot faster at getting the job done. Carbide seems to take awhile, bogs down my HF lathe pretty easy if you try to take a big cut.
 
#12 ·
I made my own carbide tools and got inserts from Capn Eddie. I tried them on spindle turnings and went right back to HSS. I used them a while for roughing out bowls, but after I learned how to use bowls gouges better (check out Lyle Jamieson on youtube) I don't use the carbide at all. Properly sharpened HSS requires less force and makes a cleaner cut. Not sure why you must have CBN, Al oxide wheels do fine for me.
 
#13 ·
Not sure why you must have CBN, Al oxide wheels do fine for me.
You don't have to have CBN wheels, but they are cleaner (nothing flaking off the wheels), they run cooler, repeatability is better (the wheel diameter doesn't change), they are available in different profiles (e.g. radius edge, etc.), and they are safer (won't crack and explode). And (IMNTBHO) they do a better job of sharpening your tools.
 
#15 ·
Whoever said HSS tools are sharper made an important point. I've found HSS to be better than carbide for turning wood, plastics, brass and even mild steel. It not only holds an edge better at high temperatures, but it doesn't get as hot running at higher speeds because it cuts with less friction. It's possible to ruin an HSS cutting tool, of course, either by not keeping it sharp or by improper grinding, but when you come to appreciate the performance of well-sharpened HSS tools, you're going to want to hone your sharpening skills and keep them performing to the max. It's no coincidence that the best turners out there are also the best sharpeners.
 
#16 ·
A combination belt-disk sander is the best thing out there for grinding and sharpening turning tools. You can easily set it up to grind any angle you desire, and belts are available in a variety of grits and abrasives. You can make some simple jigs and fixtures if you need them, but with a little practice you can sharpen most tools without them.
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
Just my opinion so…
I do have a carbide tool that I made and it works pretty well for roughing out bowls. I do think the Easy Wood tools are over priced. The "medium" is $120 but the replacement cutter is $15-19. The cutter may well be worth the money but that makes the handle $100? Make your own handle for <$20 for the wood, steel bar, proper tap and drill bit. Oh, my bits are German made carbide for a planer and were $19 for a box of 10.

I have watched several videos on the carbide but still have questions in regards to spindle work.
How do you cut beads close together or very small beads? How do you cut coves with a diameter smaller than the bit? How can you avoid the horrible chip out of square corners on a pommel cut? How do you make a shoulder cut? How do you cut a V groove more shallow than the angle of the tip of the diamond bit (and some of the diamond bits are not even pointy)?
Anyone know how to make these standard spindle cuts with carbide; if so please link me to the video(s).
 
#19 ·
Just to clarify … carbide tools are, for the most part, scrapers.

They don't really slice the wood like properly sharpened HSS tools, but rather they tear it. That results in a surface that needs considerable sanding.

The exception, of course, would be the dished carbides (like those used on Hunter hollowing tools). They can be very aggressive and if not handled properly can produce some undesirable results. Don't ask me how I know.
 
#20 ·
I bought a couple of the Easy Wood Tools when they first became popular thinking they would make the roughing portion of my life easier, but eventually realized that I could rough green wood faster with a bowl gouge and the gouge was also neater as fewer of the shavings were hitting me directly in the mask. Other than occasional use of the "easy finisher" due to its convenient shape for situational scraping, these tools went into my drawer and gathered dust.

However, I now almost exclusively turn kiln-dried wood, mostly making platters from 8/4 lumber and I have rediscovered the usefulness of carbide. I can true up a platter blank and do rough shaping much easier and faster, most especially on really hard hardwoods, with carbides than with my go-to bowl gouges. I have recently turned two 18" platters from Jatoba (2690 on the Janka scale) and shaping that piece entirely using a gouge would have been painful and annoying. Carbide made easy work of it.

That said, I never use carbide for finishing cuts. I typically use a combination of my Thompson gouge or negative rake scraping for finishing cuts. I prefer the R6 (radius 6") carbide bits from AZ Carbide.
 
#22 ·
Rick M you posted a great link prices and shipping very reasonable in deed. Thanks for posting!

Lot of pen & wood turners turning antler, bone, and exotic woods use this site.

http://www.carbidedepot.com/Wood-Turning.aspx

I have same roughing HSS roughing gouges & scrappers bought over twenty years ago and cannot tell you how many times have resharpened them. Have wore out couple spindle & bowl gouges along the way through constant use. Still have some of my allen wrenches converted to scrappers for hollowing X-mas ornaments.

When your carbide cutter is completely dull, a touch up with a diamond card file may bring it back a little but bottom line you have to replace that cutter. When my tool is dull just make a trip to the grinder. I am not looking for a tool so can rotate the cutter or waiting on a replacement cutter.

Yes, carbide tools are here to stay and have a place in the craft of woodturning. No they will never replace conventional woodturning tools! Think all the previous posting by memebers explain why!

So will need to buy and learn to sharpen your turning tools!
 
#23 ·
I started out with traditional tools doing small turnings. I have since moved into bowls and larger work. It was a trying learning curve using a bowl gouge and now better with that. I bought some inserts from Captin Eddie because carbide seemed to be the thing. Easier than learning a bowl gouge. However glad I didn't start with them. I would much rather use my Thompson bowl gouge than carbide. And I think my Thompson scrapper is better than and even easier than carbide. I may use carbide occasionally, but prefer traditional tools.
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am new to turning, but recently I acquired a small H.F. lathe. I also got some of the H.F. steel (not HSS) lathe tools which need constant resharpening. So now I am debating whether I should invest in some carbide tools, or get a CBN grinding wheel and some HSS tools. If you add the cost of the wheel and the tools, it is about the same as the carbide tools are alone. What do you suggest I do and why?

- eflanders
Old school turners preach HSS but the advantage goes to the hand that rocks the cradle not the cradle. It always has and always will! Sure a turner can get a "smoother" cut with very very sharp steel but that very very sharp steel says "ouch" very quickly when mother natures rubs it wrong every time. He then has to stop and resharpen just before the "one more" cut or he is turning with a dull edge again on the gouge, scraper, etc. anyway Especially with drier wood, steel abrades the edge very quickly. Carbide can be resharpened with a few seconds on a diamond hone much easier than any steel sharpening system. And no matter how nice of a final cut, it will never compare to the finish a real worker wants to end up with after they use the magic of abrasives and finishes. My thinking is thus. each tool in your shop has a purpose that it was acquired for, use it to that full advantage and capability, then proceed next with whatever improves the job better. Todays tools and methods are so different from what the "masters" and old schoolers developed, results are what matter. I have both tools and use both constantly.

Not a plug and I have nothing to do with http://azcarbide.com/products/ but their assortment especially the newer Shear cutters are very inexpensive compared to the high end carbide dealers.
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have to disagree with the notion that carbide cant get as sharp as HSS. The sharpness is not a function of the grain structure of the medium but the grain size of the abrasive sharpening it. how sharp does one need to be is sharper always better or is sharp enough enough. micro chips are caused by heat created by friction at the edge during sharpening. I know it seems to be "common knowledge" but is not true. It is true that most carbide tools sold for turning are ground as scrapers. So they are used as such. if you get an insert ground with a "bevel" or relief it can be used in the exact same way as a bowl or spindle gouge. lookup the nomenclature for the way a carbide insert is determined. Here is a table: http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm carbide can give similar results to traditional HSS tools provided the edge is presented similarly. here is a video of a carbide insert used in kiln dried ash certainly not presented as a scraper.

 
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