[2Many-Hobbies]

I have got a short piece (10 inches) of hard maple that will micro-roll the edge of all my planes within one pass, and I want to understand why. Bonus if anyone can suggest a way to over-come it.

Planes in question, Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 Jack, 7 1/2 jointer and a well tuned (a la Charlesworth) Record 4 1/2 smoother with Hock iron and chip breaker.

All sharpened with a guide to 30 deg using water lubricated diamond, water stones and glass backed lapping film to 6000 grit + polish. Use the Charlesworth ruler trick. The Hock has had the back bevel steepened to about 5deg to better tackle curly wood.
Can cheerfully take one thou thick shavings from figured cherry, walnut and curly soft(er) maple. 2-thou thick shavings off other pieces of curly hard maple from same source were not a problem. The smoother left a smooth finish, others had a bit of tear-out, but the edges were fine.

The wood in question, as said, is US hard maple. I was given several pieces around 1998 by a friend of my Grandfather, in Kentucky. The friend was a master furniture maker who got his start in my great grandfather's planing mill and had barn after barn of wood to die for. Lord knows how old the wood I got was. It little more than large off-cuts, but I wasn't much of a wood worker then, and it had to fit in luggage! As both old boys are long passed now, the wood has a lot of sentimental value and I have hauled it around ever since. Always stored in the house. I have a plan for the bigger bits, but my mum asked me to make something that this small piece would be the perfect size for. Something that needs wood of more value than just being pretty.

I don't have a table-saw, power mitre-saw, power jointer/planer, but do have a 14" bandsaw to rip to thickness.

This wood would be split four ways, planed all around, the ends mitred and trimmed on a mitre shooting board.

I needed to square up one edge before ripping and got one pass with the 5 1/2 jack, and the next pass just scraped. Tried a couple more passes with ever less effect then took the iron out for a look. Under 6x magnification a tiny burr could just be seen. Felt too with a finger nail. Blade re-sharpened, checked with lens, all good, no burr. Back in plane, test cut on some other wood, all fine, one pass on the killer maple and the edge was rolled again. Tried the same thing with the other two planes, and tried them all on the other pieces of maple. Its only this one piece that causes problems, and it causes the same problem for all three irons.

What the heck is going on?!? I have had less trouble with rosewood! Has anyone encountered something like this?

The faces can be cut a little more than the edges. I got six passes on a face before the blade lost its edge and quit cutting, but the edges kill the cutting edge in one pass.


This is the culprit.

Thanks

Chris

 

[Loren]

following.

 

[CaptainKlutz]

Had the same edge retention problem when I first started using hand planes and chisels seriously. Was given a suggestion that worked = change the angle.
If you are rolling up an edge burr in couple passes with 30°, change the angle to 25°. Edge will last longer, but will take a little more energy to push, so keep the cuts light.
TBH - For smoothing in soft woods, will sometime make a secondary bevel at 27° on 10K stone to avoid resharpening entire edge, and because I am lazy. But if dulls quick, I go back to 25°.

Not a plane expert, just sharing one possible solution, so YMMV.

 

[Unknowncraftsman]

The dark area in your hardmaple could be minerals.
If it is your trying to cut sand.
I stay away from maple with the really black streaks they will nick jointer knives badly
Here is a example of my knife after hitting the mineral streak

Good Luck

 

[Unknowncraftsman]

 

[Phil32]

Thanks for your precise reporting on this experience with hard maple. It shows there are always surprises when it comes to wood. It proves again that we never have all the answers when to comes to woodworking.

 

[EricFai]

I would try to make shallower cuts first.

 

[Hammerthumb]

The wood may have become case hardened due to improper drying.

 

[Foghorn]

I've worked with and planed a lot of hard and soft maple and never run into what appears to be a silica or other hard mineral issue. Looks like abrasives are in your future.

 

[bruc101]

I've got a Lie Nielson 51/2 jack with a 25 degree bevel on the iron. Planed some hard maple with it yesterday and didn't have any issues. Could be your 30 degree bevel.

 

[Sylvain]

Timber having been submitted to volcano ashes?

 

[Moai]

For some good reason the same wood is called "Rock" Maple. I have found low angle / bevel up planes work 100 times better than standard bench planes in cases like this. When working difficult grains, I use a blade with 38 degrees bevel, that is 50 degrees effective cutting angle or York pitch. You can feel the difference right away.

 

[MadMark]

They don't call it "rock" maple for nothing.
Maple is often riddled with crossgrain making planing problematic.
At 30+ years old it's as dry and hard as its going to be.
Due to the crossgrain it can have HUGE unrelieved stress. A block of maple is the only thing my TS ever failed to rip. I wound up scrapping that block of BEAUTIFUL curly maple because it was uncuttable, and i routinely cut jatoba, purpleheart, ironwood, ebony, ipe, etc. -- but not that partucular block of maple!

 

[2Many-Hobbies]

Thanks for the replies guys.

@Moai 's suggestion to use a steeper angle tracks with what I have read, seen and been taught about planing hard or difficult timbers. I have heard it most for dealing with curly grain, but maybe it would work for this. I don't want to mess with the bevel on the 7 1/2 since I used that for shooting end grain, but might try a more extreme back bevel on my smoother.

Today I reground the blade for the 5 1/2 BD Jack to 26deg and the results were in line with my experience with other tools, the edge didn't roll faster, but it did roll more, the burr was larger and more easily detected.

For the chaps that suggested that 30deg might be the problem and that 25deg (more acute) might be better, I am very curious about why this would work. It was mentioned by a woodworking colleague at work, but when pressed he seemed unsure about the angles and might have been talking BU planes. I know BU lower angle works on end grain, but unquestionably causes more tear out in curly long grain. However my two main planes are bevel-down, so reducing the sharpening angle doesn't change the angle the iron meets wood, just makes the edge more acute. Your suggestions must have worked for you, but I would love to understand why. Can anyone explain the cutting mechanics that seem opposite from other cutting tools, where if you have an edge that chips or rolls, you increase the sharpening angle?

I did wonder about case hardening. I took the plunge, threw an older blade on the bandsaw and ripped the wood into four sticks (2 cuts at 90 deg). First piece planed okay, second piece killed the plane in three passes. Haven't bothered trying the other two yet.

To check that it wasn't just a matter of hardness, I dug out a few more exotic bits of wood for comparison. Same plane setting produced shavings ranging from 0.001" to 0.002". No problem taking 0.001" shavings off the soft maple after working all the wood to its left. Bigger bit of hard maple planed okay, but it was becoming noticeably duller so I stopped and resharpened, then tried the plane-killer piece. Got two poor rumpled shavings, then nothing but scraper dust on the third pass. Wood hardness doesn't look like it is the problem. Nor is curly grain since there was some curl to the rosewood, ebony and quite a lot in the longer hard maple.

Some kind of mineral deposits do seem to be the leading hypothesis. Not sure what to do about that though!

 

[Unknowncraftsman]

In maple mineral deposits are greenish black.
But in ebony mineral deposits are white they add character but a pain in the ass.
Good Luck

 

[2Many-Hobbies]

Definitely got greenish streaks in this maple. More worrying is there look to be similar streaks in some of the other pieces too.

 

[Rwolinski]

Several things come to mind
most of them we’re already mentioned. Like mineral deposits, etc.
The angle of the bevel on a 5-1/2 Jack plane really will only change the point sharpness. It will roll larger as you found. I may have missed it but your irons may have lost temper. I’m sure you don’t overheat when grinding the primary bevel. But something you might check with a new IBC or Lie Nielsen blade.

 

[Oldtom]

I have got a short piece (10 inches) of hard maple that will micro-roll the edge of all my planes within one pass, and I want to understand why. Bonus if anyone can suggest a way to over-come it.

Planes in question, Lie Nielsen 5 1/2 Jack, 7 1/2 jointer and a well tuned (a la Charlesworth) Record 4 1/2 smoother with Hock iron and chip breaker.

All sharpened with a guide to 30 deg using water lubricated diamond, water stones and glass backed lapping film to 6000 grit + polish. Use the Charlesworth ruler trick. The Hock has had the back bevel steepened to about 5deg to better tackle curly wood.
Can cheerfully take one thou thick shavings from figured cherry, walnut and curly soft(er) maple. 2-thou thick shavings off other pieces of curly hard maple from same source were not a problem. The smoother left a smooth finish, others had a bit of tear-out, but the edges were fine.

The wood in question, as said, is US hard maple. I was given several pieces around 1998 by a friend of my Grandfather, in Kentucky. The friend was a master furniture maker who got his start in my great grandfather's planing mill and had barn after barn of wood to die for. Lord knows how old the wood I got was. It little more than large off-cuts, but I wasn't much of a wood worker then, and it had to fit in luggage! As both old boys are long passed now, the wood has a lot of sentimental value and I have hauled it around ever since. Always stored in the house. I have a plan for the bigger bits, but my mum asked me to make something that this small piece would be the perfect size for. Something that needs wood of more value than just being pretty.

I don't have a table-saw, power mitre-saw, power jointer/planer, but do have a 14" bandsaw to rip to thickness.

This wood would be split four ways, planed all around, the ends mitred and trimmed on a mitre shooting board.

I needed to square up one edge before ripping and got one pass with the 5 1/2 jack, and the next pass just scraped. Tried a couple more passes with ever less effect then took the iron out for a look. Under 6x magnification a tiny burr could just be seen. Felt too with a finger nail. Blade re-sharpened, checked with lens, all good, no burr. Back in plane, test cut on some other wood, all fine, one pass on the killer maple and the edge was rolled again. Tried the same thing with the other two planes, and tried them all on the other pieces of maple. Its only this one piece that causes problems, and it causes the same problem for all three irons.

What the heck is going on?!? I have had less trouble with rosewood! Has anyone encountered something like this?

The faces can be cut a little more than the edges. I got six passes on a face before the blade lost its edge and quit cutting, but the edges kill the cutting edge in one pass.


This is the culprit.

View attachment 3866846 View attachment 3866847


View attachment 3866849
Thanks

Chris

You might try grinding the blade so it is not such a shallow angle, which makes for a weak edge..

 

[Erikburd]

Like others have said already, it looks like there's minerals or something in that wood. I've worked with hard maple using my smoothing plane and it's had no issues with a 25 degree angle.

 

[woodchuckerNJ]

a few of my thoughts.
Older wood gets harder.
You could have silica in the wood (possibility) depending on where it was.
lower angles usually roll an edge over faster, since they are sharper. Higher angles 50 degree York are less prone to rolling over, since there is more support to the edge. I work a lot of maple, and it's an awful hard wood to plane due to the change in grain direction, and it's tearout. I go high angle and across the grain. I take as fine a cut as I can, and close the throat up as much as possible to prevent it from lifting chunks.

Still looking to master it. I work a lot of tiger maple, The guy I buy from has a stroke sander because of how difficult it is to plane.

Good luck.