LumberJocks Woodworking Forum banner
  • Please post in our Community Feedback thread for help with the new forum software! If you are having trouble logging in, please Contact Us for assistance.
541 - 560 of 607 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #541 ·
Mental tally ...

• 10 router bits to be used
• 4 pieces of wood (body, fence, and 2 aux fences -- one flat, one molded)
• 3 pocketing operations
• 46 cuts and counting
• 11 setups and counting
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
28,515 Posts
Mental tally ...

• 10 router bits to be used
• 4 pieces of wood (body, fence, and 2 aux fences -- one flat, one molded)
• 3 pocketing operations
• 46 cuts and counting
• 11 setups and counting
you ever do anything easy ? :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #543 ·
Here's where I come from, so that folks coming after me can be inspired to do better (because talking to today's yout's, it is far from clear that they understand what I am about to say, through no fault of their own).

Time will out-last all of us. You have free will while you are alive and what you do during that time will dictate what happens afterward. You can leave next-to-nothing physical and still be impactful beyond your life through teachings and inspirations just as it is possible to be recalcitrant to the point of leaving nothing but physical belongings -- and we all leave at least one physical belonging behind (your body).

I try not to think too much about what it is that I will leave behind as long as it is better than what I would have left behind yesterday.

A fair percentage of us on this forum (perhaps safe but the outlier) have utilized a previously owned tool. Where did that tool come from? Who left it behind? What can forensics tell us about their life?

Let me cut to the chase ...

Next time you use that old tool and you have some feels about its form and function, I implore you to think about it more of a reverence for time. I believe it's all about time.

The length of time the tool was used before it came to you.
If it was owned by a loved one, the time that was spent with that loved one.
If it was a hard to acquire tool or hard to restore, the amount of time in doing so.

So what on Earth is it that I am even doing here (with this plane; this unGodly complicated plane ... when I could just buy a BadAxe or BlackBurn)?

I am gifting time.

To answer your question, my dear friend, the complexity is the gift through the time.

I gather most people would add "and effort" to that, but I don't put a value on effort, I put a value on time. This will sound counter-productive until I explain that it actually works out in the end despite devaluing effort.

Effort can sometimes be akin to "work" which in the collegiate sense to me has meant Force / Distance -- a man expending all his energy to move a block he does not move may be very tired but he has done less work than the man that has used negligible energy to move a tiny object a fraction of an inch. It's not my definition of work, it's the physics definition of work -- which unfortunately is rather results oriented (physics is all about effects and analyzing inputs to systems to derive cause and effect formulae).

I have this idea that if I make something simple, time will not be kind to the effort.

If I make something thoughtful with disregard to the effort, then time will be kind.

So, ... did I answer?

I make some simple things. But I always make sure what I make is thoughtful and incorporates a component of time -- time I put into it as well as time you will enjoy it.

How does the "yout's" play into this?

Well, in mentoring the kids of friends and neighbors, I've become woefully disappointed in the collective inability to focus long enough to understand that I want your best and sometimes to be at your best you have to be willing to disappear and refine yourself and come back. The mentees I have at my disposal, none of them read books (I have been asked "how do you learn from books"), half cannot read cursive (so technical drawings from the 1800's on hand planes require help), and if what I am trying to explain takes longer than a minute or two, then they glaze over.

I'm scared, because everything seems to need to have an immediate answer, be immediately actionable, and if the process takes too long then the results are not worth it.

What happened to actually slowing down and thinking and taking time with something. Personally I love it when I perform a little work on something, walk away, think of something that had not occurred to me before, and then get the chance to incorporate that before I even start the work.

So far, more than 3 dozen times on developing this project, I have been glad that I took the time to model a part and digitally fit it together before attempting to cut the piece, because so many times what I think of is utter garbage and needs to be filed into the "won't work" bucket. That's part of the fun for me though -- are there more than one ways to make this thing? Sure -- but I can tell you about 100 different ways that it absolutely won't work if you attempt X, Y, or Z.

It's like Thomas Edison said about his invention of the light-bulb. In no certain words, that he failed 100 times before succeeding. Me? I prefer not to fail, and the best way I know to do that is to gleefully seek out fault in a design so that I can count it as improbable, unfeasible, or down-right crazy, so I can not think about it again.

The problem here with this tool is actually that ... I unfortunately keep finding ways forward that haven't killed the tool yet. Believe me, I keep looking for ways to tell me that there is a reason that nobody has done this yet. Pity me however, that sadly I seem destined to succeed on this one.

That's really great news to all the people I want to be gifting my time to. After I die, I want them to be able to look at it, use it, experience it, and for years after my departure, it will slowly and steadily reveal its nuances that prove that I gave this thing a metric crapton (I'm told this is an actual unit) of thought.

And THAT, ... my friend ...

Is how I give.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #544 ·
The silence is deafening. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with one's age and I was just raised differently. I'd rather not give anything than give something half-assed is how I feel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #545 ·
My spouse points out though that we are a product of the 80's where parents told you to go outside and play then locked the door and told you not to come back until the street lights come on. Unless you were bleeding from the ears or had to use the bathroom, you weren't allowed back inside.

Our parental units were often checked-out or working so hard that they didn't have time for us. However, when they did have time for us, you never knew if you were going to finally "get it" for all the bad things you had done in the meantime.

We're not "Obsessive Compulsive" though it's entirely arguable that we are "disordered" ...

We were simply raised to presume that nobody has time for you and that when they do, you better have been giving it your all every second of the day because you never know when someone is going to "check your work"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #547 ·
Just look at all that real estate for your left hand. Unlike traditional (as if that word applied here) 3 arm plow planes (which are far from traditional; on the contrary are quite rare, only seeing a few makers such as Chapin-Rust, Isaac White, and Kimberley) I am determined to not clutter up the fence board with unnecessary attachments so that I can fit my entire palm and thumb under the adjustment rod. The closer I get to the final ergonomics, the more excruciating it is to be patient and work out every last detail.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,499 Posts
Maybe a touch more to the rear of the fence? Mainly looking at a "balance" And it might protect a knuckle, or two..DAMHIKT....

When I am working with the Stanley 45....I do not use the front knob....I tend to wrap my left thumb in, and around the front rod's connect to the fence...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #549 ·
Hmmm, interesting.

So you're saying you'd like the rear of the fences to be aligned?

Should I be concerned about having a threaded insert only ~1/4" away from an edge? The reason they are not aligned is to give meat for the threaded insert to be stable in.

Rectangle Font Parallel Magenta Symmetry

Slope Font Parallel Rectangle Diagram

Colorfulness Rectangle Slope Font Parallel

Rectangle Font Parallel Circle Diagram

Violet Rectangle Font Magenta Pattern
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,499 Posts
You COULD notch around the M 6 Insert....

On the No. 45, the metal part of the fence does not go the full length of the wooden fence.....there is about~ 1" or so at each end that is just the wooden part of the fence

Place I was concerned about, was when you'd reach the end of a board, would there be any "drop-off"...

I have nicked up a pinky now and then, by pulling too far back...that the front end of a plane drops down ( going way too fast?) and the little finger slams down on a sharp corner or the board...ow...:mad:

I realize your plane work on the pull stroke....however, that starting pull may not always land ON the board's edge....but a finger might...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #551 ·
Not sure what you mean by "notch around the M6 insert" (clarification needed)

I am anticipating that because of angled presentation of the blade to the cutting surface, I will have to start at the far end and work my way back (not unlike using some traditional grooving planes).

I want to avoid a design flaw right out the gate, so you got me thinking about that area of the plane, and so I pulled up my inspirations (3 arm plows) and you are spot on. I think I need to extend the rear of the fence in this manner:

Font Magenta Diagram Graphics Event
Product Font Parallel Rectangle Slope


Product Font Parallel Rectangle Screenshot

Ecoregion Slope Rectangle Font Parallel

Is that what you were referring to?

Here's some images that show wooden plow fence demarcation that we can draw from:

Wood Wood stain Hardwood Varnish Flooring

Wood Gas Metal Rectangle Auto part

Wood Office ruler Ruler Metal Art

Wood Art Auto part Plywood Machine

Wood Rectangle Font Metal Plywood

Wood Saw Household hardware Gas Machine
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #553 ·
I think I understand why you thought I could "notch" around the M6 insert. That's on the opposite side from the fence, the concern was within the wood. Perhaps this is a better illustration.

I took your advice and I reworked the fence design taking it from 2 x 7 up to 2 x 9. Now the 1/2" brass rod arm is only 1/8" away from the M6 threaded insert (internally within the plane -- note however that they project out of different sides of the plane).

There is now a full 6.5" of unobstructed surface under the fence between the two posts (atop the arms) that hold the auxiliary fence (the part of the fence that goes under the sole of the plane).

The auxiliary fence has grown from a scant 1.5 x 12 inches to a monstrous 1.5 x 17.5 inches long (the depth has not changed at ~3 inches).

This thing is a beast.

Oh, and we're absolutely still on schedule to name this thing "Moby Nick"

Violet Font Magenta Electric blue Rectangle

Azure Font Parallel Gas Rectangle

Rectangle Purple Font Violet Material property
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,013 Posts
The silence is deafening. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with one's age and I was just raised differently. I'd rather not give anything than give something half-assed is how I feel.
Took me until today to even find this. Without “pulse” I’m going to miss a lot, I suspect.

Anyway, I half-ass things all the time, but that’s stuff that I’m going to be using, and my general rule is that I’ll make a really quick and sloppy version first, then when it goes wrong, I’ll make a second version incorporating what I learned from using the first, and then if that breaks, the third one will be pretty damned good.

But sometimes I find that I don’t ever use the quick and sloppy first attempt a second time, because I figure out a better process where I don’t need it. Then that first version didn’t waste time I could’ve spent on something else. But I have way more ideas for stuff to build than I ever get around to building.

But hell, I’ve got a box I’m building that has over a week just in the (painted) finish. That’s going to someone else, and I want it to look spiffy. Plus I’m learning new techniques in finishing all the way. Different goals…
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
28,515 Posts
Took me until today to even find this. Without “pulse” I’m going to miss a lot, I suspect.

Anyway, I half-ass things all the time, but that’s stuff that I’m going to be using, and my general rule is that I’ll make a really quick and sloppy version first, then when it goes wrong, I’ll make a second version incorporating what I learned from using the first, and then if that breaks, the third one will be pretty damned good.

But sometimes I find that I don’t ever use the quick and sloppy first attempt a second time, because I figure out a better process where I don’t need it. Then that first version didn’t waste time I could’ve spent on something else. But I have way more ideas for stuff to build than I ever get around to building.

But hell, I’ve got a box I’m building that has over a week just in the (painted) finish. That’s going to someone else, and I want it to look spiffy. Plus I’m learning new techniques in finishing all the way. Different goals…
dave just use alerts.sorta what the pulse was.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
28,515 Posts
Alerts aren’t remotely like pulse. You can’t set an alert for something you haven’t found yet. Like this thread, until I found it today.
true but ya just gotta "browse" the forum more ! once you find it though alerts will notify you.im fine with it. what i dont like is ive lost all my favorite projects ! at least as far as i know ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #558 ·
I set default filter on “What’s New” page and it feels like Pulse to me. Occasionally I flip the “unread” and “followed” checkboxes to explore new content then go back to watching followed content as shown below

Product Font Screenshot Material property Rectangle
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
433 Posts
The silence is deafening. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with one's age and I was just raised differently. I'd rather not give anything than give something half-assed is how I feel.
Here's where I come from, so that folks coming after me can be inspired to do better (because talking to today's yout's, it is far from clear that they understand what I am about to say, through no fault of their own).

Time will out-last all of us. You have free will while you are alive and what you do during that time will dictate what happens afterward. You can leave next-to-nothing physical and still be impactful beyond your life through teachings and inspirations just as it is possible to be recalcitrant to the point of leaving nothing but physical belongings -- and we all leave at least one physical belonging behind (your body).

I try not to think too much about what it is that I will leave behind as long as it is better than what I would have left behind yesterday.

A fair percentage of us on this forum (perhaps safe but the outlier) have utilized a previously owned tool. Where did that tool come from? Who left it behind? What can forensics tell us about their life?

Let me cut to the chase ...

Next time you use that old tool and you have some feels about its form and function, I implore you to think about it more of a reverence for time. I believe it's all about time.

The length of time the tool was used before it came to you.
If it was owned by a loved one, the time that was spent with that loved one.
If it was a hard to acquire tool or hard to restore, the amount of time in doing so.

So what on Earth is it that I am even doing here (with this plane; this unGodly complicated plane ... when I could just buy a BadAxe or BlackBurn)?

I am gifting time.

To answer your question, my dear friend, the complexity is the gift through the time.

I gather most people would add "and effort" to that, but I don't put a value on effort, I put a value on time. This will sound counter-productive until I explain that it actually works out in the end despite devaluing effort.

Effort can sometimes be akin to "work" which in the collegiate sense to me has meant Force / Distance -- a man expending all his energy to move a block he does not move may be very tired but he has done less work than the man that has used negligible energy to move a tiny object a fraction of an inch. It's not my definition of work, it's the physics definition of work -- which unfortunately is rather results oriented (physics is all about effects and analyzing inputs to systems to derive cause and effect formulae).

I have this idea that if I make something simple, time will not be kind to the effort.

If I make something thoughtful with disregard to the effort, then time will be kind.

So, ... did I answer?

I make some simple things. But I always make sure what I make is thoughtful and incorporates a component of time -- time I put into it as well as time you will enjoy it.

How does the "yout's" play into this?

Well, in mentoring the kids of friends and neighbors, I've become woefully disappointed in the collective inability to focus long enough to understand that I want your best and sometimes to be at your best you have to be willing to disappear and refine yourself and come back. The mentees I have at my disposal, none of them read books (I have been asked "how do you learn from books"), half cannot read cursive (so technical drawings from the 1800's on hand planes require help), and if what I am trying to explain takes longer than a minute or two, then they glaze over.

I'm scared, because everything seems to need to have an immediate answer, be immediately actionable, and if the process takes too long then the results are not worth it.

What happened to actually slowing down and thinking and taking time with something. Personally I love it when I perform a little work on something, walk away, think of something that had not occurred to me before, and then get the chance to incorporate that before I even start the work.

So far, more than 3 dozen times on developing this project, I have been glad that I took the time to model a part and digitally fit it together before attempting to cut the piece, because so many times what I think of is utter garbage and needs to be filed into the "won't work" bucket. That's part of the fun for me though -- are there more than one ways to make this thing? Sure -- but I can tell you about 100 different ways that it absolutely won't work if you attempt X, Y, or Z.

It's like Thomas Edison said about his invention of the light-bulb. In no certain words, that he failed 100 times before succeeding. Me? I prefer not to fail, and the best way I know to do that is to gleefully seek out fault in a design so that I can count it as improbable, unfeasible, or down-right crazy, so I can not think about it again.

The problem here with this tool is actually that ... I unfortunately keep finding ways forward that haven't killed the tool yet. Believe me, I keep looking for ways to tell me that there is a reason that nobody has done this yet. Pity me however, that sadly I seem destined to succeed on this one.

That's really great news to all the people I want to be gifting my time to. After I die, I want them to be able to look at it, use it, experience it, and for years after my departure, it will slowly and steadily reveal its nuances that prove that I gave this thing a metric crapton (I'm told this is an actual unit) of thought.

And THAT, ... my friend ...

Is how I give.
I may not have yet fully digested all that you wrote, but I agree with the issue of the value of spending time on what we do. People often ask me why don't I "just throw that away and buy a new one"? Because it satisfies me to figure out what is wrong and determine whether I can fix it. My house is filled with "fixes" that give me endless satisfaction (whether or not anyone in the future will even notice). So I completely understand your focus on thinking through everything in order to make it work right, whether or not the effort is "worth it," especially for something that people will keep and use in the future. [That said, I'm more like Dave P in that I'll mock something up to see if it works, then modify it to get it right. :)]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #560 ·
Took me until today to even find this. Without “pulse” I’m going to miss a lot, I suspect.

Anyway, I half-ass things all the time, but that’s stuff that I’m going to be using, and my general rule is that I’ll make a really quick and sloppy version first, then when it goes wrong, I’ll make a second version incorporating what I learned from using the first, and then if that breaks, the third one will be pretty damned good.

But sometimes I find that I don’t ever use the quick and sloppy first attempt a second time, because I figure out a better process where I don’t need it. Then that first version didn’t waste time I could’ve spent on something else. But I have way more ideas for stuff to build than I ever get around to building.

But hell, I’ve got a box I’m building that has over a week just in the (painted) finish. That’s going to someone else, and I want it to look spiffy. Plus I’m learning new techniques in finishing all the way. Different goals…
When the option to half-ass something presents itself AND I can prevent anyone from knowing it ever existed, I gleefully proceed in that manner -- and so I absolutely respect that approach. However, have you ever found that something was so complicated that your mind simply could not comprehend its workings?

This is kind of going to sound dumb, but ... moldings. I simply could not comprehend anything about them (6 months ago). I bought "The Wooden Plane: It's History, Form, and Function" by John M. Whelan in hardback off eBay and read it cover to cover. Then I felt like I could at least look at a molding and understand what I was looking at. Before that, I would look at a wooden plane with a molded fence and sure it looked pretty, and I could tell that some moldings looked different than others, but until I read that book I really couldn't do what I suspected I needed to do ... which was to create a molded fence.

Perhaps it was because I perceive that molded fences have gone the way of the Do-Do bird. I don't think there are any plane makers that I am aware of that make a plane produced in the past 10 years that has a molded fence.

So, there I was in a sliding door moment, ... do as other makers and make a boring fence, a boring plane, a board with two threaded inserts and a rough shape and call it a day?

Nay, ... let's make something pretty. And down the rabbit hole I went. Moldings on planes? Yes please. I am informed, I know the styles (Victorian, Edwardian, Elizabethan), the technical naming system and all its components (I can look at a molding and describe its components in a systemic form to describe it to myself and others), and I know the tools that were/are used on 3 continents over the past 150+ years in creating them.

You want to talk about half-assing something, ... I didn't really see a way to possibly half-ass a molding when initially I didn't even understand what I was looking at. I could have thrown all the money in the World at the problem and got absolutely nowhere, safe for maybe just grabbing some pre-made crown molding and trying to use it as a fence (not solving the problem of truly understanding molded fences).

I feel so empowered now that I want to try things like Doric structures, fluted columns, and more. I've been destroyed in the sense that now I can't even look at furniture or architecture without identifying the individual components AND why those components were chosen. For me, it wasn't even enough to know that for example a slipped bead or torus or Ovolo is named as such, or where "Ogee" is derived from, but rather it was about learning when to use, for example, a lying Ogee, an Ovolo, a beak, a snipe's/crow's bill, quirk, fillet, and so-on.

For example. In creating the fence, this is what I did (using the knowledge from the ages):

1. Find wood
2. Determine how wood will be held
3. Draw features that will make it comfortable
4. Determine how skinny the skinny end will be and how fat the fat end will be
5. Separate your router bits or cutting irons into groups based on whether the cut will cause the wood to get thinner or thicker (HINT: Some bits/irons can do both depending on which side of the bit/iron you present to the wood)
6. Identify any fillets first (the flat spots) as landmarks
7. Bridge the fillets in a way that minimizes re-work (HINT: For example, a bull nose profile without a bull nose bit/iron will require sanding to remove the potential tool mark left where the two ovolos meet ... but, if you instead slip one or both Ovolo you instead form a Gothic astragal which needs no cleanup after)

ASIDE: Quirks are often signs of similar molding technique as the last hint. Easier to let the bit/iron (for example, a point-cutting round-over bit) generate a quirk so that the fillet stops short of generating a corner that is hard to sand into.

When I look at a molding now, I have no less respect for what goes into them -- quite the opposite, I respect them more.

Will anyone look at my plane and see what I see when I look at the below molding? Heh, probably not -- safe for maybe Matt Estlea who has gone to furniture school (wish we had such things here in this country).

...

Don't get me wrong @DavePolaschek -- would loved to half-assed this one to get a working tool faster, but ... I want a molded fence and by golly, I'm going to have one.

As an aside, ... like some old planes had "boxing" ... I strategically am placing two 1/8" diameter brass rod into the molded fence so that when you're holding it, you feel the brass in the finger groove, and when you set it down, it sets on brass (so you can toss the thing down hard-ish).

I even went so far as to calculate the center of gravity when the plane is sitting on the molding.

So I give it back to you ...

I would like to ask ...

If something cannot be wholly contained in one's brain and is fleeting at best, does that mean that reading a book and using a computer to help arrive at the complicated solution is "over kill?"

I'm not taking offense to any one approach or not, but I honestly didn't see any way forward that was simple and reading a book and using CAD for me was required to model the thing because I couldn't keep it straight in my head and looking at pictures of wooden planes with molded fences just made things worse until I studied up.
 
541 - 560 of 607 Posts
Top