LumberJocks Woodworking Forum banner
1 - 20 of 28 Posts

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
the one Rockler has Looks like an Earlex 3000 , both will spray the product , my preference is to use a 1.4 or 1.5 needle/nozzle set up in the earlex , I open up the fluid knob to get as much fluid as possible , bearing in mind , water base is thicker , if need be thin it up to 10% , with water ( tap will do fine), get a medium mesh strainer , as long as the fluid goes thru it reasonably well , you are fine ( viscosity) , the finer tip ( instead of a 2.0) allows a finer spray , but because its thicker you have to put more fluid to it , to get it to spray well,
the coating will look milky white , and should look relatively smooth and wet , water base will look somewhat like the peel of an orange ( slight exaggeration), when first applied , but will level out , the smoother it is put on the smoother it will be, but again it can have a bit of texture , as it doesn't lay and flow like solvent based products , the molecules in water base glue together to form the film, like a zillion BB's all touching , solvent based the resins are dissolved , so they are in liquid form , as soon as the solvent evaporates you have a film, but it will lay flat initially , water base behaves a little differently , what you want is a moderate wet coat , and walk away … check it an hour later , then check it after an overnight dry .. you will see what I am talking about… hope this helps
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
you are not getting enough material on, its "dry", you want a wetter coat , slow down , you want a wet coat to follow the gun, this is a common error made in spraying , folks get scared of runs, so they spray to light , the trick is how wet to avoid runs , but wet enough to flow out level, try this , take a scrap , brush a "wet coat", that is what you want to replicate when spraying , I have often said if your not getting a run every now and again , your not getting it wet enough , you might also try thinning it a bit ( 5 to 10%), I always have a good synthetic brush handy , if I happen to get a run a quick brushing will level it out , if it starts to "set up" on you , wet the brush with some water , the issue you are having is you don't have enough material on to flow together , a sprayed finish is simply zillions of droplets of finish that flow together to form a film, too little material, you get a rough pebbly finish , too much you get a run, it definitely requires some practice … You will get it , but keep the brush handy , I been spraying since I was 13 , I'm now 56 , I still keep a brush around , Water base is tough to get the hang of , it requires a thicker film to level out , and its a fine balance , also be sure you keep the gun parallel to the surface , don't swing it in arch's , you want approx a 6" fan pattern, and be about 6 to 8" away from the surface …
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
Rob, the enduro var , as well as any waterbase , all have the same properties , If you are like me and have sprayed alot of solvent based products , it takes a bit of getting used too .. and usually foul language is part of the process :)
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
this is a good thread , so I will help further , get you some mirka abralon , its a 6 inch pad that will work on your random orbit , lets assume you have a less than perfect finish, once its dry , sand it by hand using some soapy water , and some 1200 to 1500 for a satin finish, or 2000 to 2500 for a gloss , super fine papers like this are usually available form your local autobody supply , its the black silicon carbide paper ( water proof) you want this guy will sell the abralon in singles http://www.bowlingbeat.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=1344
using a 1000 then a quick hit with some 2000 will give you a nice satin , 3000 to 4000 will give a semi gloss to gloss , they also work well for hand rubbing , auto body polishing compound, rottenstone, pumice , while they will polish a film, they all basically work to a gloss , a satin is hard to get as well as a semigloss , the abralon pads, because they are a defined grit do it well , no matter how much you rub you get the same result, once you have it sanded to a level smooth surface , then rub it out with your choice of pad , clean it up ,a light coat of wax will brighten it , the key is to let the finish cure , a week to 10 days is typical for Water Based , however when you are at the auto-body supply , they have a product called either hand glaze , or swirl remover , its a cleaner /wax sort of product used to finish off new finishes , it doesn't contain wax or silicons , new finishes unless cure like to streak wax , even water base … , you can also use micro mesh sand paper , on the RO sander .. Woodcraft sells it in a 5 pack I believe here is Vid I did on rubbing a finish http://charlesneilwoodworking.com/category_player.php?type=1&cat=3&video=rubbingout.flv
hope all this helps
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
one last thing, polys are the toughest to rub, shellacs , lacquers and acrylics are the easiest , poly are tough , like a care tire , so they remain somewhat pliable ,makes polishing harder to do , newer ones are better , water base does better than oil base , but all finishes can be rubbed , but if you are planning to rub always apply an extra coat to do so , some water base finishes can ghost if you cut thru from one layer into the other , because they dont burn in together like solvent based products, or polys , so a way around that is to apply a second coat as soon as the the last coat has tacked , just enough to lightly touch , oil finishes require and extra 2 or more coats, same with gels , they are much thinner films, and require going very gently , always leave edges alone , they will rub thru super quick , so be careful
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
the issue with these like the earlex 3000 is they spray the water base but barely , they just dont have power to atomize the heavier fluid fully, thus me saying use the smaller needle/nozzle and increasing the fluid, it helps break the fluid up more , the finer the droplets the smoother it will layout , with less material , my instruction is opposite most , most say go to a heavy needle/nozzle, you can but then you get a flood of material with very liittle break up … again back to the water hose , hold the thumb tight over the end and you get spray , back off , well you get the point …
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
a sanding sealer is basically finish with a sterate in it to make it sand easier , it does not help adhesion , it simply makes it easier to get a defuzzed surface , because of the sterate that causes it to be a bit softer , high builds are not a good idea ,as long as you are getting a good surface, stay with it , I rarely use it ..but in large case's or production work the ease of sanding is a plus , apply one good wet coat , let dry , scuff sand smooth and move on
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
Kent , I was the guy back in the 70's , who was doing all the scenes and trick painting on the van's and hot rods, did the van fest , had a van, air compressor , air burshes , had to haul a generator to run the compressor , had the van full of lacquer paints , and not enough sense to not smoke with the van full of all that stuff , had 4 vehicles in hot rod magazine ,Hung out alot in Myrtle Beach SC, remember when the group Alabama played at the Bowery , for little bit of nothing , but then I got to liking wood , go figure… the three scents that did me in was gasoline, perfume and the smell of cherry being sawn , not to mention the smell of lacquer , then somewhere along the line , came, quit drinking , no red meat , quit smokin, and water base finishes , so now days , I just try to remember the good old days , when I was bullit proof , and help the folks not trip over all the rocks you and I have … Glad to see a " dues paid" guy … Ya know , when I teach a finishing class , I get Ed in to help me teach spraying , because like you I have done it so long , I just dont think about it , like you I look at the sheen following the gun , and "Just know" when I got it right , maybe we should start a thread of "war stories"... name it "Old Fa**'s and all the stuff we forgot "... good to hear from you … oh yea … and now days I can type about 15 words a min, and you can read half of them… my oh my .. how life changes … later y'all
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
I dare think we are the only ones who have run the full mile , its the older guys with all the years under the belt , who will help the rest , what its all about , hope others will chime in , for all reading , remember its all in the details , its not the big things its the little things , like getting a decent saw to learn to cut a dovetail, or a good spray gun to learn to spray , think of it like this , its like buying a lawn mower that has a set of spiral blades, that you push back and forth , it will do the job , but then you can get one with a motor , they are both "lawn mowers", but the effort and result are far different , I am always amazed , at how we buy the same stuff that didnt work last time , expecting it work this time , because its cheap, there is a name for this , it just escapes me at the moment … he h eh e.. dinner is a waiting .. tomorrow y'all
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
Bill , I don't agree with the water under the finish, if you have that using a solvent based, you should see it in the un rubbed finish , its called blushing , it where the finish absorbs moisture from the air or usually from a compressed air system that is not filtered to remove the moisture from the air line, rubbing will usually produce a sort of hazy look , using a good lambs wool pad and either some wax or as listed above the swirl remover /hand glaze takes care of it , what you are seeing is a combination of the super fine scratches as well as often a light residue , when a clear finish is scuff sanded notice how it turns white its a minor amount that will hang on the surface and make it cloudy , the glaze /swirl remover and lambs wool bonnet help to remove it , wax will as well, the problem with wax is it will also add sheen , so if you want a satin , and you rub to a 1500 with the abralon , then wax you will get about a 3000 , or semi gloss , the glaze swirl /remover will add some sheen but not as much as wax, the other side to it is it will clear up after some use , and regular dusting, but I am not real good at waiting, so I use the swirl remover , as well when you rub a finish you "open it up", meaning , just like planing a piece of rough kiln dried lumber , once you remove the outer surface , it is now open to further dry , or acclimate , finish will do the same , once rubbed to wait a day or so for it to do a final surface cure , it seems to finish up alot better , solvent based products are worse than water , solvent based post cat as well as pre cat do better because they are chemically cured , shellacs, and nitrocellulose lacquers are the worst , so a light scuff with a fine paper and then allow them to cure down longer really helps , as well the same with oils and gel varnishes .The link I posted above at bowling beat they sell the lambs wool pads as I recall, it may seem odd to be looking at a bowling store for rubbing products, but its the products they use to polish bowling balls , which are plastics, and guess what finishes are , they are all a form of plastic…
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
Poroskywood, two things, Im not familar with the HD spray gun, am assuming its a gravity fed HVLP, second , a good gravity fed with a compressor works quite well, not sure the turbine would help all that much, one of the things I do know, there can be alot of difference in spray guns , even if they look the same, the gravity fed HVLPs are the oldest design , they been around for about 20 + years, I bought one paid 400.00+ in 1982 , still have it , the difference is in the machining , and how well they are done , meaning inconsistent needle /nozzle sizing, how well the needles seat into the nozzle , all play an important part , in many cases these guns are made in the same offshore factory, just like jointers and planers, and so forth , the difference is what the retailer or alledged manufacture dictate as the acceptable standards , so the good stuff goes one place and the not so good goes somewhere else , when you see 19.95 guns, look out , in my experience its someone selling off the junk, not sure about your gun, I just went and looked at the Homedepot guns , they look fine , I suggest you do 2 things, first pull the needle /nozzle , air cap and all apart, clean them well , water base can build up inside and clog everything up some, use MEK to clean it , if you have to , it will dissolve anything, dont use it or leave it in a plastic cup , it will dissolve it ( really) , use a scotch bright to clean the needle and inside the nozzle ( wrapped on a pencil) also the air cap, be sure all the holes are open, if not a small sewing needle will help clean them , once you have the gun clean , make sure all is working well, spray some water thru it , as long as it is breaking up the water and you have a good consistent fan ,you are ok,
now to the product , thin it about 10% , strain it thru a med mesh strainer , when you clean the gun ,remove the cup , sometimes there is a micro mesh strainer just under the cup , in the fluid tube , remove it and clean it , or just remove it , water base is thicker , the strainers they install are often too small to keep the fluid moving, also be sure the vent hole is clear , as long as it moves well thru the strainer you are ok, if not thin a bit more , it should flow with a continuious stream , nice steady flow thru the strainer , adjust your air to about 25 to 30 lbs at the gun, and open the fluid knob , you should get a nice even flow , fan about 6" wide , if to much fluid back off , to llittle tighten the fan up a bit to give more concentration, you may need to increase or decrease the pressure, you want a nice smooth flow from the gun, with out alot of overspray ( high pressure), now i feel sure I havent told you anything you didnt already know , but there are alot who dont .. thus the write up …..I will tell you this, the HVLP gun I have is the one Woodcraft sells with a 1.5 needle/nozzle and i spray with it all the time, solvent, dye, stain, and water base , does well… but i have found the filter under the cup can be a issue, so go there first… both of mine i removed the filters for Waterbase
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
water base build up on tip, UPDATE… I didnt have any chap stick, but i got to thinking , so I tried some http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=462 , on the air cap , just a light coat on the face and wiped a little around the outlet hole , wiped it back, I use this on my saws and things, it doesnt rub off and seems to be water resistent and dries hard, I have been spraying off and on for about an hour and no build up , so maybe , if i were to use the gun for shellac or solvent , I would clean it with some alcohol or lacquer thinner , just to be sure no chance of contamination, thus far with the water base , no issues, no signs of contamination, Just FYI
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
Ok to be sure , I just switched to the enduro var, in my woodriver HVLP with a 1.5 , it strained well out of the can , I had the fluid knob open about all the way and had to go to a 3 1/2 to 4" fan to get a nice wet, coat..Just FYI , about 25 lbs of pressure at the gun ( no filter) ( no build up )
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
it does rolltop, a 3/4 horse compressor , not sure there, it has to be able to put out about 50lbs at the compressor and sustain it for as long as you will be spraying, alot of guys use a pancake so it would proably work , ( 50 lbs at the compressor because you will lose pressure thru the line) , the thing about a compresor is how long it will maintain the pressure , thats why larger tanks ,and compressors are used for sanding, but spraying small items or a cabinet , dont take all that much air volume , you proably would not be able to spray continious , but for short periods it should work, but do look to getting a filter for your gun, a water / oil filter
something lik e this http://www.diytools.com.au/default.asp?page=productdetails&ID={F2D16E5E-3451-4CDD-9C53-D6DC1E439B96}&utm_source=getprice&utm_medium=cpc

be sure to put it at the gun, not at the compressor, air from a compressor is hot , thus the condensation, it will condense in the air hose , and you will get water , google air compressor water filters and so forth there is a ton of info , but you do want a clean air supply , this is the gun I have and like , I have 2 http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=25126&ss=7bc6218f-6447-487c-95d0-b97107062e84 , they are not expensive , but seem to do a good job , especially for the $, its what I am spraying with right now , tell you what else you can do with small compressors, is to get one of those tanks you fill with air to carry for flat tires and rig it up with your compressor , so you have greater air storage volume .
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
last thought on the woodriver spray gun ( I go spray and something else comes to mind , sorry), it comes with a 1.4 needle/ nozzle , this will handle about all your spraying needs , in as much as finishes, dyes and stains go , it will not spray paint , to spray paint you will need to go to a 2.0 needle /nozzle set up , and you will have to thin the paint… these are not the best guns for paint, ( latex), turbines are better , because they pressurize the fluid helping to deliver the fluid to the tip, but even then you need a larger needle/nozzle , and about 10% thinning for latex
 

· In Loving Memory
Joined
·
2,482 Posts
wow I missed this one.. big time…. let me look and see what the pad was.. its a interface pad as I recall.. but I will get the answer.. this showed up on my blog stats, or I would have missed it completely,,, hey if I havent answered in 24 hours email me.,I missed it.. [email protected] , just here to help if i can
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top