[rolltopbox]

I am having trouble locating information about using this product on new wood. I plan to spray using a Rockler HVLP system like this.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10469

I am looking for help in selecting tip size, what the film should look like right after spraying, etc.

Thanks for any help given.

 

[HokieJoe]

Hello, I'm in a similar situation. General's recommendation is to use a .043" - .051" tip with an HVLP gun. With my gun, (Earlex 5000) the 1mm tip = .040", so that's the tip I'll be using with the Enduro precat.

From General's website:

"Recommended Spray Tips for Wood Stains and Top Coats. Fluid tip sizes should be as follows: Compressed air - .040, HVLP - .051, Airless - .009. Recommended Tips for Milk Paint. Compressed air - .050, HVLP - .072, Airless - .013. Air caps should be medium size. Contact your supplier to verify proper tip sizes for your specific equipment."

They also recommend using their Pre-Cat Sanding Sealer before using the Enduro. BTW, I posted a question about tip size over at WoodWhisperer's website here:

"Music to My EARlex": http://thewoodwhisperer.com/episode-45-music-to-my-earlex/#comment-56029

 

[CharlesNeil]

the one Rockler has Looks like an Earlex 3000 , both will spray the product , my preference is to use a 1.4 or 1.5 needle/nozzle set up in the earlex , I open up the fluid knob to get as much fluid as possible , bearing in mind , water base is thicker , if need be thin it up to 10% , with water ( tap will do fine), get a medium mesh strainer , as long as the fluid goes thru it reasonably well , you are fine ( viscosity) , the finer tip ( instead of a 2.0) allows a finer spray , but because its thicker you have to put more fluid to it , to get it to spray well,
the coating will look milky white , and should look relatively smooth and wet , water base will look somewhat like the peel of an orange ( slight exaggeration), when first applied , but will level out , the smoother it is put on the smoother it will be, but again it can have a bit of texture , as it doesn't lay and flow like solvent based products , the molecules in water base glue together to form the film, like a zillion BB's all touching , solvent based the resins are dissolved , so they are in liquid form , as soon as the solvent evaporates you have a film, but it will lay flat initially , water base behaves a little differently , what you want is a moderate wet coat , and walk away … check it an hour later , then check it after an overnight dry .. you will see what I am talking about… hope this helps

 

[rolltopbox]

Thanks CharlesNeil for the details. I think I am on the right track.

 

[rolltopbox]

I have sprayed 2 coats, sanded 400 grit and sprayed two more coats. Each coat was allowed to dry 1 to 4 hours between coats. The sanded coat was allowed to dry overnight.

I keep getting this rough pebbly finish. The first picture is after the forth coat and a day of drying. The second picture is after sanding 400 grit.

So what am I doing wrong?

 

[CharlesNeil]

you are not getting enough material on, its "dry", you want a wetter coat , slow down , you want a wet coat to follow the gun, this is a common error made in spraying , folks get scared of runs, so they spray to light , the trick is how wet to avoid runs , but wet enough to flow out level, try this , take a scrap , brush a "wet coat", that is what you want to replicate when spraying , I have often said if your not getting a run every now and again , your not getting it wet enough , you might also try thinning it a bit ( 5 to 10%), I always have a good synthetic brush handy , if I happen to get a run a quick brushing will level it out , if it starts to "set up" on you , wet the brush with some water , the issue you are having is you don't have enough material on to flow together , a sprayed finish is simply zillions of droplets of finish that flow together to form a film, too little material, you get a rough pebbly finish , too much you get a run, it definitely requires some practice … You will get it , but keep the brush handy , I been spraying since I was 13 , I'm now 56 , I still keep a brush around , Water base is tough to get the hang of , it requires a thicker film to level out , and its a fine balance , also be sure you keep the gun parallel to the surface , don't swing it in arch's , you want approx a 6" fan pattern, and be about 6 to 8" away from the surface …

 

[CharlesNeil]

Watch this see if it helps http://www.earlex.com/finishing-tips-video.html

 

[CharlesNeil]

Rob, the enduro var , as well as any waterbase , all have the same properties , If you are like me and have sprayed alot of solvent based products , it takes a bit of getting used too .. and usually foul language is part of the process

 

[CharlesNeil]

this is a good thread , so I will help further , get you some mirka abralon , its a 6 inch pad that will work on your random orbit , lets assume you have a less than perfect finish, once its dry , sand it by hand using some soapy water , and some 1200 to 1500 for a satin finish, or 2000 to 2500 for a gloss , super fine papers like this are usually available form your local autobody supply , its the black silicon carbide paper ( water proof) you want this guy will sell the abralon in singles http://www.bowlingbeat.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=1344
using a 1000 then a quick hit with some 2000 will give you a nice satin , 3000 to 4000 will give a semi gloss to gloss , they also work well for hand rubbing , auto body polishing compound, rottenstone, pumice , while they will polish a film, they all basically work to a gloss , a satin is hard to get as well as a semigloss , the abralon pads, because they are a defined grit do it well , no matter how much you rub you get the same result, once you have it sanded to a level smooth surface , then rub it out with your choice of pad , clean it up ,a light coat of wax will brighten it , the key is to let the finish cure , a week to 10 days is typical for Water Based , however when you are at the auto-body supply , they have a product called either hand glaze , or swirl remover , its a cleaner /wax sort of product used to finish off new finishes , it doesn't contain wax or silicons , new finishes unless cure like to streak wax , even water base … , you can also use micro mesh sand paper , on the RO sander .. Woodcraft sells it in a 5 pack I believe here is Vid I did on rubbing a finish http://charlesneilwoodworking.com/category_player.php?type=1&cat=3&video=rubbingout.flv
hope all this helps

 

[CharlesNeil]

one last thing, polys are the toughest to rub, shellacs , lacquers and acrylics are the easiest , poly are tough , like a care tire , so they remain somewhat pliable ,makes polishing harder to do , newer ones are better , water base does better than oil base , but all finishes can be rubbed , but if you are planning to rub always apply an extra coat to do so , some water base finishes can ghost if you cut thru from one layer into the other , because they dont burn in together like solvent based products, or polys , so a way around that is to apply a second coat as soon as the the last coat has tacked , just enough to lightly touch , oil finishes require and extra 2 or more coats, same with gels , they are much thinner films, and require going very gently , always leave edges alone , they will rub thru super quick , so be careful

 

[rolltopbox]

Foul language is good!

I now have that flowed out surface that I remember from the day…..

I also have some runs that I will be glad to give away. But I can see what I was doing wrong and that my present equipment may work out just fine. It is a HF HVLP unit like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677

I am using the smallest needle, 1.5mm, that came with it.

Thanks, CharlesNeil, for sharing your knowledge.

 

[CharlesNeil]

the issue with these like the earlex 3000 is they spray the water base but barely , they just dont have power to atomize the heavier fluid fully, thus me saying use the smaller needle/nozzle and increasing the fluid, it helps break the fluid up more , the finer the droplets the smoother it will layout , with less material , my instruction is opposite most , most say go to a heavy needle/nozzle, you can but then you get a flood of material with very liittle break up … again back to the water hose , hold the thumb tight over the end and you get spray , back off , well you get the point …

 

[rolltopbox]

The earlex 5000 looks great and will be added to the list. I have been foam brushing various waterborne finishes for two years. The things I make are a challange to finish. http://www.ovaltambour.com I wanted to try spraying so I looked around and found favorable reviews for this machine. I hope it will get me through my current production season of Tambour Desks and Oval Tambour Jewelry Boxes.

In the day I finished my work with varnish or Velvit Oil. i now have to use more responsible finishing methods.

 

[rolltopbox]

I am not using a sanding sealer on this work, I just spray the pre-cat on the sanded bare wood. Does anyone have any thoughts about any benefits for sanding sealer? I am finding mixed opinions on the need for sanding sealer.

 

[CharlesNeil]

a sanding sealer is basically finish with a sterate in it to make it sand easier , it does not help adhesion , it simply makes it easier to get a defuzzed surface , because of the sterate that causes it to be a bit softer , high builds are not a good idea ,as long as you are getting a good surface, stay with it , I rarely use it ..but in large case's or production work the ease of sanding is a plus , apply one good wet coat , let dry , scuff sand smooth and move on

 

[KentS]

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the great info Charles. I have you beat though. I've been spraying since I was 12, and I'm 57 now.

I certainly don't have anything to add, other than Charles is right on in his answers, especiall about the language. I think the most frustrating thing I've done in the shop is to teach someone how to spray. It seems the only way to really learn is to just do it, and do it, and do it and--------------well, you get the picture.

 

[CharlesNeil]

Kent , I was the guy back in the 70's , who was doing all the scenes and trick painting on the van's and hot rods, did the van fest , had a van, air compressor , air burshes , had to haul a generator to run the compressor , had the van full of lacquer paints , and not enough sense to not smoke with the van full of all that stuff , had 4 vehicles in hot rod magazine ,Hung out alot in Myrtle Beach SC, remember when the group Alabama played at the Bowery , for little bit of nothing , but then I got to liking wood , go figure… the three scents that did me in was gasoline, perfume and the smell of cherry being sawn , not to mention the smell of lacquer , then somewhere along the line , came, quit drinking , no red meat , quit smokin, and water base finishes , so now days , I just try to remember the good old days , when I was bullit proof , and help the folks not trip over all the rocks you and I have … Glad to see a " dues paid" guy … Ya know , when I teach a finishing class , I get Ed in to help me teach spraying , because like you I have done it so long , I just dont think about it , like you I look at the sheen following the gun , and "Just know" when I got it right , maybe we should start a thread of "war stories"... name it "Old Fa**'s and all the stuff we forgot "... good to hear from you … oh yea … and now days I can type about 15 words a min, and you can read half of them… my oh my .. how life changes … later y'all

 

[KentS]

Charles, now that we have hi-jacked this thread, you are bringing back old memories. I've even painted a van, complete with desert scene, pick-ups, cars, a John Deere tractor, and even a couple of boats. I learned to spray lacquer on shutters--do not try this at home! I've done complete houses, inside and out, and no telling what else.

And after all that, just last week I found myself painting a picture frame for my wife with a can of Krylon--go figure.

 

[CharlesNeil]

I dare think we are the only ones who have run the full mile , its the older guys with all the years under the belt , who will help the rest , what its all about , hope others will chime in , for all reading , remember its all in the details , its not the big things its the little things , like getting a decent saw to learn to cut a dovetail, or a good spray gun to learn to spray , think of it like this , its like buying a lawn mower that has a set of spiral blades, that you push back and forth , it will do the job , but then you can get one with a motor , they are both "lawn mowers", but the effort and result are far different , I am always amazed , at how we buy the same stuff that didnt work last time , expecting it work this time , because its cheap, there is a name for this , it just escapes me at the moment … he h eh e.. dinner is a waiting .. tomorrow y'all

 

[a1Jim]

Wow Charles is the free version of Finishing A-Z ? Good stuff. I learned to spray on Antique cars . We would spray them right in the shop ,wet down the floors and use acrylic lacquer so it could be rubbed out. No booth and against the fire code. So I just got through painting a car opened the door and there stands the fire inspector. He says your not painting in there are you ? ,as the air, my face , my close are all red from paint.
All I could say was were not suppose to paint with out a booth, then he said alright then as long as your not painting and then he left (a very cool guy.
As far as what we are when we keep buying cheap stuff that doesn't work , Would it be called dumb of cheap or both….