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First cabinet design. Did I forget anything?

557 Views 19 Replies 8 Participants Last post by rwe2156, 14 d ago

RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · 17 d ago

I've never designed cabinets or anything before, but this is my attempt. My wife wants these in her craft area along one wall. At this point, I'm ready to start cutting material, but I want to make sure I haven't missed anything and end up with a costly mistake.

Whole length run is a little over 12'.

All the cabinets are using 3/4" stock except the backs which are 1/2".

The bottoms/tops are inset using a 1/4" rabbet or dado.

Bottom rails stick up 1/16 above the bottom shelf of cabinet. (I think I read to do that somewhere)

Stiles that are against walls are 1/2" wider to accommodate for scribing.

Upper middle cabinets are 2 carcasses with 1 face frame. I'll fit the face frame after the 2 outer upper/lowers are installed.

Really I've tried to mental note any bit of research I've done on cabinet building and put it in the basic construction design. But information seems so scattered and can be misleading at times. Lumberjocks seems like one of the best places to go for advice so here I am. Thank you!

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KentInOttawa

· #2 · 16 d ago

My only concern with this is the 12'-plus run (width) with what appears to be 3/4" (1" nominal) stock for the top with just a small apron at the front supporting the 6'-ish span in the middle. If that has a ledger (rear apron) that is attached to the rear wall, it should be fine. If you're making it free-standing and without a rear apron, you could get some sagging. Just my $0.02.

The rest looks good but, as always, the devil is in the details. Will the sides, backs and shelves be plywood or solid lumber? If solid, will that be softwood or hardwood? Will the shelves be let into dadoes or will you be using some form of track or adjustable pegs to make them adjustable? What sort of hinges will you be using and how will they work with the face frame overlaps that you plan on using? So many questions and so many details...

Many of the finicky details in century-old solid wood cabinets are techniques that have been learned and adapted over time to account for the seasonal movement of solid lumber. Plywood, for all intents and purposes, doesn't do that so the joinery and the resulting fabrication are much simpler but additional steps need to be taken to conceal (or celebrate) the plywood edges.

Keep asking questions; they're free.

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LeeRoyMan

· #3 · 16 d ago

If you're going to make 1 face frame for the middle upper cabinets, I would run the top and bottom rails all the way across (between the two outside stiles) and I would make the middle stile go in between them.

jkm312

· #4 · 16 d ago

I agree with Kent concerning the possible sag in the middle. Will your design allow using a french cleat along the top and middle to attach it to the wall? Another thought is to add in some 1.5 by .75 strips of material under each interior top nailed in from each side. That way you have a solid anchor point between the cabinet and wall stud. Adding toe kicks in the bottom two outside cabinets will add some support on the front. It will change the look, only the two of you can decide it that is worth it.

Unknowncraftsman

· #5 · 16 d ago

I don’t think your going to find blue wood.

Other then that looks good to me
Good Luck

Reactions: 1

rcs47

· #6 · 16 d ago

The design looks good. There are good comments on anchors, hinges, etc.

The next step is thinking about how to get the finished piece into the location. Do you need to go down a hall and maneuver through a tight door? A 12’ long piece is difficult to move.

I’d consider making each end piece in two pieces, with the lower section without a top, and the top section with the lower shelf connected. These could be screwed together once in the room. The two middle sections can be attached to the two sides.

I learned to look at how to get a piece into its final location working for me Dad. He would have customers ask for large cabinets that were in room part way down a narrow hall. We would have to build them specifically to make the turn into the room and assemble it in the room.

Now the fun starts, good luck,

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RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #7 · 16 d ago

KentInOttawa said:
My only concern with this is the 12'-plus run (width) with what appears to be 3/4" (1" nominal) stock for the top with just a small apron at the front supporting the 6'-ish span in the middle. If that has a ledger (rear apron) that is attached to the rear wall, it should be fine. If you're making it free-standing and without a rear apron, you could get some sagging. Just my $0.02.

The rest looks good but, as always, the devil is in the details. Will the sides, backs and shelves be plywood or solid lumber? If solid, will that be softwood or hardwood? Will the shelves be let into dadoes or will you be using some form of track or adjustable pegs to make them adjustable? What sort of hinges will you be using and how will they work with the face frame overlaps that you plan on using? So many questions and so many details...

Many of the finicky details in century-old solid wood cabinets are techniques that have been learned and adapted over time to account for the seasonal movement of solid lumber. Plywood, for all intents and purposes, doesn't do that so the joinery and the resulting fabrication are much simpler but additional steps need to be taken to conceal (or celebrate) the plywood edges.

Keep asking questions; they're free.

The top is actually 1.5" thick. Made of two layers. One layer of MDF on the bottom with another 3/4" maple ply glued on top. There will be a 4/4 piece of maple on the front acting as the face. There is both a front and rear apron. I used an online calculator to see if it would sag. I'm not sure if I'm able to post links here, but its called the "sagulator". Said everything looked good.

Sides and backs are also maple ply. The shelves were originally made like the top, minus the MDF bottom. But I'm uncertain if the span is too long. I figured IF there was any sagging, I could double up on the maple plywood OR add some kind of support along the back of the shelves, just like the front would have. I may build a few versions and just see what holds up best?

My plan was to use adjustable pins. The wife doesn't know what shelf spacing she wants and I thought this was a solution to that. I was looking at the "L" shaped ones. But how sturdy are they really? I don't expect the shelves to be overloaded but that's easier said than done.

Planned to use Blum compact hidden hinges with 1/2" overlay and soft close. The doors that are adjacent to the walls will be getting the 105* hinges with the little stopper that prevents it from opening too far. And the other two will get the 170* versions.

I appreciate the questions/concerns... and answers! Thank you. If anything stands out as "uh oh" I'll happily adjust things.

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RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #8 · 16 d ago

LeeRoyMan said:
If you're going to make 1 face frame for the middle upper cabinets, I would run the top and bottom rails all the way across (between the two outside stiles) and I would make the middle stile go in between them.

I'm not against this, but what is the reasoning? Reducing the chance of seeing any joints?

RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #9 · 16 d ago

jkm312 said:
I agree with Kent concerning the possible sag in the middle. Will your design allow using a french cleat along the top and middle to attach it to the wall? Another thought is to add in some 1.5 by .75 strips of material under each interior top nailed in from each side. That way you have a solid anchor point between the cabinet and wall stud. Adding toe kicks in the bottom two outside cabinets will add some support on the front. It will change the look, only the two of you can decide it that is worth it.

I really like the idea of adding a French cleat to the back to help with the hanging process. I don't think the way I have them constructed right now will let me do it though. I cant have cabinets sitting off the wall if I were to simply slap them on the back. What is a good way to incorporate this?

I will add in some extra support strips underneath the top, for screwing into the studs.

As for the front toe kick... We've danced around it quite a bit and that tapered leg is what she settled on. The only thing I could think of was to possibly pocket hole into the face frame, from below. But you're right, its not as sturdy, that's for sure.

KentInOttawa

· #10 · 16 d ago

RamenXNoodles said:
The top is actually 1.5" thick. Made of two layers. One layer of MDF on the bottom with another 3/4" maple ply glued on top. There will be a 4/4 piece of maple on the front acting as the face. There is both a front and rear apron. I used an online calculator to see if it would sag. I'm not sure if I'm able to post links here, but its called the "sagulator". Said everything looked good.

Sides and backs are also maple ply. The shelves were originally made like the top, minus the MDF bottom. But I'm uncertain if the span is too long. I figured IF there was any sagging, I could double up on the maple plywood OR add some kind of support along the back of the shelves, just like the front would have. I may build a few versions and just see what holds up best?

My plan was to use adjustable pins. The wife doesn't know what shelf spacing she wants and I thought this was a solution to that. I was looking at the "L" shaped ones. But how sturdy are they really? I don't expect the shelves to be overloaded but that's easier said than done.

Planned to use Blum compact hidden hinges with 1/2" overlay and soft close. The doors that are adjacent to the walls will be getting the 105* hinges with the little stopper that prevents it from opening too far. And the other two will get the 170* versions.

I appreciate the questions/concerns... and answers! Thank you. If anything stands out as "uh oh" I'll happily adjust things.

It sounds to me like the top should be good. Doubling up the shelves is probably overkill for shelves less than 36" wide but front AND rear aprons on shelves over 24" wide wouldn't be a bad thing. The L-shaped pins for the shelves are definitely up to the task.

These Blum hinges should work well as described. They certainly address any concerns that I had running through my broken brain. 🤫

Definitely consider Doug's (@rcs47) suggestion to build this as separate assemblies to make transporting and installing it much easier.

RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #11 · 16 d ago

rcs47 said:
The design looks good. There are good comments on anchors, hinges, etc.

The next step is thinking about how to get the finished piece into the location. Do you need to go down a hall and maneuver through a tight door? A 12’ long piece is difficult to move.

I’d consider making each end piece in two pieces, with the lower section without a top, and the top section with the lower shelf connected. These could be screwed together once in the room. The two middle sections can be attached to the two sides.

I learned to look at how to get a piece into its final location working for me Dad. He would have customers ask for large cabinets that were in room part way down a narrow hall. We would have to build them specifically to make the turn into the room and assemble it in the room.

Now the fun starts, good luck,

Thanks! You're spot on, installing everything separately. You do bring up something though, which is the side uppers. I intended for all the shelves to be adjustable. Maybe I should make at least the bottom shelf fixed? To add some rigidity.

KentInOttawa

· #12 · 16 d ago

If the backs are 1/2" plywood, the top piece of the upper units are solid and the bottom is attached to the base unit, I doubt that you'll need to have a solid shelf at mid-height. The upper unit will only be about 42" high overall, which is somewhat comparable to these Ikea Billy shelves made out of thinner (flimsier) material.

LeeRoyMan

· #13 · 16 d ago (Edited)

RamenXNoodles said:
I'm not against this, but what is the reasoning? Reducing the chance of seeing any joints?

Just normal technique. Gets rid of the seams that will telegraph through the paint after about 6 months or less.
Makes for a stronger unit connecting the 2 together. That said, it's not necessary, just how I build cabinetry.

DanKrager

· #14 · 16 d ago

There is no mention of how this will interact with the inevitable molding in the room. My first install encountered that unforeseen problem. There was no choice there but to cut the molding out where the cabinet was to fit.

Thereafter, the molding was carefully measured and the cabinets built with trim clearance at the back so the cabinets were actually fitted over the moldings. Over the years, this turned out to be a very helpful thing for the next guy working there, which was usually me. People change cabinets like paint and wall paper, so removing them did not involve more than patching screw holes.

DanK

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RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #15 · 16 d ago

First, I have to say how awesome this is. To come here and get solid advice from skilled/experienced people. Incredible. Thank you.

KentInOttawa said:
If the backs are 1/2" plywood, the top piece of the upper units are solid and the bottom is attached to the base unit, I doubt that you'll need to have a solid shelf at mid-height. The upper unit will only be about 42" high overall, which is somewhat comparable to these Ikea Billy shelves made out of thinner (flimsier) material.

The uppers are roughly 60" tall. The one thing I really haven't sorted out is how I should attach them to the top itself. I cant exactly screw in from the underside of the top, because the lowers are in the way. The lowers and uppers are the same overall width.

LeeRoyMan said:
Just normal technique. Gets rid of the seams that will telegraph through the paint after about 6 months or less.
Makes for a stronger unit connecting the 2 together. That said, it's not necessary, just how I build cabinetry.
Here is what I'm currently working on. I made the upper center section 1 cabinet.
View attachment 3874944

Makes sense to me! Will be changing this. Also... beautiful!

DanKrager said:
There is no mention of how this will interact with the inevitable molding in the room. My first install encountered that unforeseen problem. There was no choice there but to cut the molding out where the cabinet was to fit.

Thereafter, the molding was carefully measured and the cabinets built with trim clearance at the back so the cabinets were actually fitted over the moldings. Over the years, this turned out to be a very helpful thing for the next guy working there, which was usually me. People change cabinets like paint and wall paper, so removing them did not involve more than patching screw holes.

DanK

That's a really good point. The plan is to keep the lowers away from the walls enough to bump up against the floor trim. The top will be made wider/deeper by enough I should be able to scribe it to the walls and get the correct reveal from the front of the lower cabinets. There is also some chair rail in the room, that I plan to remove for the cabinets to fit in. It will end up being replaced later anyway with wainscoting.

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RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #16 · 16 d ago

Is this a crazy idea? Adding support in the toe kick area?
View attachment 3874947

KentInOttawa

· #17 · 16 d ago

RamenXNoodles said:
Is this a crazy idea? Adding support in the toe kick area?
View attachment 3874947

This is a good idea.

You can also scribe the back cornersof the sides to fit around the baseboards. A fair bit of modern chipboard/plywood furniture comes with this already done.

Here's a discussion elsewhere that talks about attaching a (hutch) top to a base cabinet, so basically what you're doing here. The general consensus there was to use dowels and gravity.

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RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #18 · 16 d ago

I like this. I'll readjust the construction later today in sketchup and post some pictures to confirm everything. I GREATLY appreciate everyone's comments.

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RamenXNoodles

Discussion Starter · #19 · 15 d ago

Hopefully these pictures show the construction method well enough. Decided not to notch out the lower rear side panel that Kent had brought up. I'll be removing the baseboards all together... Will look much better in the end. New trim is going up anyway. But I'm required to get these done first. 😅

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rwe2156

· #20 · 14 d ago

Removing the baseboard & running it around the cabinet ties it into the room & gives a more built in look. 👍

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