LumberJocks Woodworking Forum banner
1 - 16 of 16 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In for a penny, in for a ton

Ever since I saw David Marks' Japanese Garden gate I was intrigued. I think it is the idea of working with wood, metal, chemicals, heat, and a creative process that caught my attention. It also helps to end up with something functional that is, hopefully, attractive to boot.



So far my research has included re-reading David Marks DIY project page on this and his other patina projects, viewing Ron Young's patina DVDs, looking at the Art Chemicals webpage, and searching the web for videos and articles. I have a list of links below.



Since I decided on the hot patina technique demonstrated by David Marks I needed to find a propane torch with a wide bell. Frustrated by a lack of info, I posted a Help request on LJs Skillshare Forum. Sure enough I got almost instant guidance from some LJs and was able to find a torch at Harbor Freight that same day.



I found a number of copper sheet suppliers on-line so I decided to try to find one close to home - the Sacramento area. Sure enough, I found a few. I bought a 4'x10' sheet of 16 oz copper for about $220. I had them cut 4' feet off one end and split the 6' piece into two pieces 24" wide. David Marks used 48oz copper plate that is about 1/16" thick and applied a patina to both sides. I've decided to apply the patina to one side and laminate the copper to a 1/4" panel. The 16oz weight seems to be stiff enough and thick enough to handle a hot patina application, but is not quite stiff enough to serve as its own panel. IMO at least (see disclaimer below).



I have no experience with copper or patina's so it is quite possible and likely probable that I will misstate or otherwise get something wrong. I'm learning as I go so if any of you have any knowledge or experience with this process please weigh in with your suggestions, comments, critiques, criticisms, whiticisms, etc. etc. Should be fun.

David Marks DIY Garden Gate page

Harbor Freight Torch

Blue Collar Supply Sacramento - Copper Sheet

Ron Young Sculpt Nouveau

Art Chemicals
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
In for a penny, in for a ton

Ever since I saw David Marks' Japanese Garden gate I was intrigued. I think it is the idea of working with wood, metal, chemicals, heat, and a creative process that caught my attention. It also helps to end up with something functional that is, hopefully, attractive to boot.



So far my research has included re-reading David Marks DIY project page on this and his other patina projects, viewing Ron Young's patina DVDs, looking at the Art Chemicals webpage, and searching the web for videos and articles. I have a list of links below.



Since I decided on the hot patina technique demonstrated by David Marks I needed to find a propane torch with a wide bell. Frustrated by a lack of info, I posted a Help request on LJs Skillshare Forum. Sure enough I got almost instant guidance from some LJs and was able to find a torch at Harbor Freight that same day.



I found a number of copper sheet suppliers on-line so I decided to try to find one close to home - the Sacramento area. Sure enough, I found a few. I bought a 4'x10' sheet of 16 oz copper for about $220. I had them cut 4' feet off one end and split the 6' piece into two pieces 24" wide. David Marks used 48oz copper plate that is about 1/16" thick and applied a patina to both sides. I've decided to apply the patina to one side and laminate the copper to a 1/4" panel. The 16oz weight seems to be stiff enough and thick enough to handle a hot patina application, but is not quite stiff enough to serve as its own panel. IMO at least (see disclaimer below).



I have no experience with copper or patina's so it is quite possible and likely probable that I will misstate or otherwise get something wrong. I'm learning as I go so if any of you have any knowledge or experience with this process please weigh in with your suggestions, comments, critiques, criticisms, whiticisms, etc. etc. Should be fun.

David Marks DIY Garden Gate page

Harbor Freight Torch

Blue Collar Supply Sacramento - Copper Sheet

Ron Young Sculpt Nouveau

Art Chemicals
I too miss the Woodworks shows, but still have some of them on DVR. Unfortunately I do not have the Garden Gate episode. I really liked the calm and deliberate way he moved through a project.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
In for a penny, in for a ton

Ever since I saw David Marks' Japanese Garden gate I was intrigued. I think it is the idea of working with wood, metal, chemicals, heat, and a creative process that caught my attention. It also helps to end up with something functional that is, hopefully, attractive to boot.



So far my research has included re-reading David Marks DIY project page on this and his other patina projects, viewing Ron Young's patina DVDs, looking at the Art Chemicals webpage, and searching the web for videos and articles. I have a list of links below.



Since I decided on the hot patina technique demonstrated by David Marks I needed to find a propane torch with a wide bell. Frustrated by a lack of info, I posted a Help request on LJs Skillshare Forum. Sure enough I got almost instant guidance from some LJs and was able to find a torch at Harbor Freight that same day.



I found a number of copper sheet suppliers on-line so I decided to try to find one close to home - the Sacramento area. Sure enough, I found a few. I bought a 4'x10' sheet of 16 oz copper for about $220. I had them cut 4' feet off one end and split the 6' piece into two pieces 24" wide. David Marks used 48oz copper plate that is about 1/16" thick and applied a patina to both sides. I've decided to apply the patina to one side and laminate the copper to a 1/4" panel. The 16oz weight seems to be stiff enough and thick enough to handle a hot patina application, but is not quite stiff enough to serve as its own panel. IMO at least (see disclaimer below).



I have no experience with copper or patina's so it is quite possible and likely probable that I will misstate or otherwise get something wrong. I'm learning as I go so if any of you have any knowledge or experience with this process please weigh in with your suggestions, comments, critiques, criticisms, whiticisms, etc. etc. Should be fun.

David Marks DIY Garden Gate page

Harbor Freight Torch

Blue Collar Supply Sacramento - Copper Sheet

Ron Young Sculpt Nouveau

Art Chemicals
Will do. You can view a nice video on his class at Artchemicals.com. I'd love to take a couple of his classes. Especially the veneer class. Need money. Need time.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Arches & Jughead

Arcs, tangents, degrees, rays, minutes, arctangents, radians. Like Jughead I don't know anything about this stuff, but that is probably unfair to Jughead. So here's what I've learned so far.

The two main considerations are whether the width of the arch rail will be the same as the stiles, and the degree or diameter or curve of the arch. The minimum curve diameter that is flush with the outside dimension is the width of the gate itself. This also produces the sharpest or steepest angle. A broader curve that is less steep is just a section of a larger diameter circle. More than anyone ever wants to know, but I do not really notice things until I try to design and build them.

There are a couple of techniques to scribe a curve. You can bend a thin piece of material to form a curve or cut a pattern with a tramel or circle jig. I used the bending and pattern/template technique that David Marks used but will probably use a tramel arm on a router to make the actual cut.



I used a Mortise Pal jig (see review) to cut matching 4"x 3/4" mortises to attached the pieces with a loose tenon.



And used the cutoffs to help clamp the pieces. Pictured here with the bottom rail that has been cut to final width.

 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Knowns & Unknowns

The challenge is trimming the arch rail to the exact width at the exact angle which, when combined with the bottom rail, will produce a square frame.

These things I know. The interior width of the gate should be slightly wider than the copper panel which is 24" (because I don't want to mess with cutting the copper). The width of the arch must be exactly the same width of the bottom rail. The sides of the arch rail must be parallel. And the most important thing, the centerline of the arch rail will be in line with the centerline of the bottom rail.

So how to cut the arch? Simply use the bottom rail to line up the arch (top) rail.

First cut the bottom rail to width and draw a centerline. Set it on a cutoff sled flush the edge (hopefully square to the blade) of the rail to the edge of the sled.



Transfer the centerline from the bottom rail to the cutoff sled.



Line the centerline of the top and bottom of arch rail with the line on the cutoff sled. Fill the angled gaps at the top with the cutoffs from the glue up.



Clamp and cut and admire the results.





Oooooooooh! Ahhhhhhhhh!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Knowns & Unknowns

The challenge is trimming the arch rail to the exact width at the exact angle which, when combined with the bottom rail, will produce a square frame.

These things I know. The interior width of the gate should be slightly wider than the copper panel which is 24" (because I don't want to mess with cutting the copper). The width of the arch must be exactly the same width of the bottom rail. The sides of the arch rail must be parallel. And the most important thing, the centerline of the arch rail will be in line with the centerline of the bottom rail.

So how to cut the arch? Simply use the bottom rail to line up the arch (top) rail.

First cut the bottom rail to width and draw a centerline. Set it on a cutoff sled flush the edge (hopefully square to the blade) of the rail to the edge of the sled.



Transfer the centerline from the bottom rail to the cutoff sled.



Line the centerline of the top and bottom of arch rail with the line on the cutoff sled. Fill the angled gaps at the top with the cutoffs from the glue up.



Clamp and cut and admire the results.





Oooooooooh! Ahhhhhhhhh!
jl… Wow! Thanks so much for the link. Great presentation on arched segments. I didn't even know the correct term was "arched segments." The video explains what I had found out through trial and error, that the inner circle is smaller diameter than the outer circle. Assuming you want the width of the segment to be the same as the width of the stiles. This is why I like LJs so much.

The template I made was poorly cut. That's why I plan to use a tramel arm to make the final cut. The key, I think, is to use the same pivot point on both circles relative to the piece, but you use two different pivot holes on the tramel. Assuming the stiles are 5 1/2" wide, the two points on the tramel would also be 5 1/2" apart (note: actually they would be a little less depending on the diameter of the router bit, one side cutting and outer arc, the other side cutting the inner arc).

Many many thanks.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Knowns & Unknowns

The challenge is trimming the arch rail to the exact width at the exact angle which, when combined with the bottom rail, will produce a square frame.

These things I know. The interior width of the gate should be slightly wider than the copper panel which is 24" (because I don't want to mess with cutting the copper). The width of the arch must be exactly the same width of the bottom rail. The sides of the arch rail must be parallel. And the most important thing, the centerline of the arch rail will be in line with the centerline of the bottom rail.

So how to cut the arch? Simply use the bottom rail to line up the arch (top) rail.

First cut the bottom rail to width and draw a centerline. Set it on a cutoff sled flush the edge (hopefully square to the blade) of the rail to the edge of the sled.



Transfer the centerline from the bottom rail to the cutoff sled.



Line the centerline of the top and bottom of arch rail with the line on the cutoff sled. Fill the angled gaps at the top with the cutoffs from the glue up.



Clamp and cut and admire the results.





Oooooooooh! Ahhhhhhhhh!
That's right. Segmented Arch. I screwed it up. Love the video. Got any others? BTW, isn't the plural of radius, radii? ;)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Cutting the Segmented Arches

Firstly… acknowledgements and thanks to Jlsmith for his response and link to Gary Katz's Sketchup Video on segmented arches. It was very helpful in my understanding of the topic of concentric circles, arches, and such.

I divided the arch cut in to three parts. The first was to cut the outside arch. Second was the inside arch. Third was to complete each cut using a flush trim bit to reference off the first cut for each. I set up the door frame on a large piece of MDF on my (new) assembly table and affixed a box down the centerline upon which I could mount a trammel arm. I cut the outer curve on a 27 1/2" radius and the inner curve on a 22" radius; the difference of 5 1/2" being the width of the stiles. Since I was using a 1/4" bit I had to compensate for the fact that, relative to the pivot, the outside curve was measured from the inside of the bit while the inner curve used the outside of the bit.





After making the outside cut I moved the stiles out of the way to make the inside cut. These cuts left me with a channel 1/4" wide and about an inch deep. I used a jigsaw to cut down the channel to free the piece. I then used a flush trim bit referencing off the previous cut to complete the arch. I clamped scrap pieces to the outside rails to prevent tearout.



Coming up next, cutting the mortises and tweaking the dryfit.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Mortise Magic

The gate frame is joined with mortise and loose tennons, although there's nothing loose about them. Cutting matching mortises is a two-step process. First is cutting the mortises to length (4 1/2", bottom, 2 1/2" top), width (3/4"), and initial depth (about 1 1/4") using the Mortise Pal jig. The second step is adding more depth to the mortises (2 1/4").

The largest mortise using this jig is 1/2" x 2 1/2" x about 1 1/4" deep. To produce a larger mortise I reposition the jig with a 1" offset in each (lengthwise) direction, and 1/8" offset on the width. By referencing the jig on both sides it produces a centered mortise. To deepen each mortise I removed the 5/8" OD collar, extended the bit, and used the bit's shaft to reference off the wall of each mortise. I don't know if this is the standard or accepted way of doing this, but it worked out just fine.











Next up… the initial dryfit and tweaking the joints.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Dryfit & teaser

Except for the fact the tennons were a little tight and there was a slight gap in one of the joints, both of which were quickly corrected on the belt sander, the frame easily fit together.



Here's the first dryfit.



There was a slight gap in the upper and lower right joints.



A quick touch of the upper arch on the belt sander fixed both.





And here's a tease of things to come!

 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Pop the Copper

Here's my first attempt at the hot patina process. All but one of the chemicals arrived from ArtChemicals, the Cupric Nitrate being on back order. I decided I couldn't wait and pressed on anyway. I printed labels so I could keep better track of the chemical blends and colors each was supposed to produce. I learned two things right away. The first is this is a complicated process. The second is you really can't mess it up. I used the method demonstrated by David Marks on his Woodworks show WWK-607.

I started by sanding both sides of the panel with a random orbit sander and 220 grit. I then cleaned the panel with dishsoap and hot water and dried it.





My plan was to lay down a background blend of Traditional Japanese Brown and the orange/brown mixture of Ferric Nitrate/Ferric Chloride, then apply some layers of a Light Green and Traditional Blue patinas. The basic method is to heat the metal to about 220 degrees or the point where water steams when sprayed on, spray on the chemicals, then flame that area. This being a first effort I overheated some areas while underheating others. I also over-flamed some and under-flamed others. Some of the chemicals produce a different color than expected.



You may notice the picture above has a lot of blue and reds and some yellow spots. This was done by design and I was happy with this result. However, the vendor advised me to apply a coat of fine wax (Renaissance) which, unfortunatley, changed the color of the yellow and muted the others. I viewed a video on their website where the demonstrator advised not to wax green or blue patinas, rather to let it cool and apply Permalac laquer. I could not tell from the David Marks DIY page whether I should spray the final coat with water to stop the reaction. He had mentioned spraying off the panel between applications of chemicals, but I am still not clear about this.

In any event, the chemicals continued to react and the panel is much more green than these photos, although it still looks good. I will post more pictures in a later blog, but here are some to give you an idea of the result.





 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Pop the Copper

Here's my first attempt at the hot patina process. All but one of the chemicals arrived from ArtChemicals, the Cupric Nitrate being on back order. I decided I couldn't wait and pressed on anyway. I printed labels so I could keep better track of the chemical blends and colors each was supposed to produce. I learned two things right away. The first is this is a complicated process. The second is you really can't mess it up. I used the method demonstrated by David Marks on his Woodworks show WWK-607.

I started by sanding both sides of the panel with a random orbit sander and 220 grit. I then cleaned the panel with dishsoap and hot water and dried it.





My plan was to lay down a background blend of Traditional Japanese Brown and the orange/brown mixture of Ferric Nitrate/Ferric Chloride, then apply some layers of a Light Green and Traditional Blue patinas. The basic method is to heat the metal to about 220 degrees or the point where water steams when sprayed on, spray on the chemicals, then flame that area. This being a first effort I overheated some areas while underheating others. I also over-flamed some and under-flamed others. Some of the chemicals produce a different color than expected.



You may notice the picture above has a lot of blue and reds and some yellow spots. This was done by design and I was happy with this result. However, the vendor advised me to apply a coat of fine wax (Renaissance) which, unfortunatley, changed the color of the yellow and muted the others. I viewed a video on their website where the demonstrator advised not to wax green or blue patinas, rather to let it cool and apply Permalac laquer. I could not tell from the David Marks DIY page whether I should spray the final coat with water to stop the reaction. He had mentioned spraying off the panel between applications of chemicals, but I am still not clear about this.

In any event, the chemicals continued to react and the panel is much more green than these photos, although it still looks good. I will post more pictures in a later blog, but here are some to give you an idea of the result.





Nothing like hearing back from my peers, or in this case my betters. Re test samples. Yeah, that probably is the way to go. Just not my way. ;) I don't think I'm patient enough. And the more I thought about it the more I thought about it. Then I just decided to go for it. Like I said, you can't really mess up.

Thanks again. Stay tuned.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Pop the Copper

Here's my first attempt at the hot patina process. All but one of the chemicals arrived from ArtChemicals, the Cupric Nitrate being on back order. I decided I couldn't wait and pressed on anyway. I printed labels so I could keep better track of the chemical blends and colors each was supposed to produce. I learned two things right away. The first is this is a complicated process. The second is you really can't mess it up. I used the method demonstrated by David Marks on his Woodworks show WWK-607.

I started by sanding both sides of the panel with a random orbit sander and 220 grit. I then cleaned the panel with dishsoap and hot water and dried it.





My plan was to lay down a background blend of Traditional Japanese Brown and the orange/brown mixture of Ferric Nitrate/Ferric Chloride, then apply some layers of a Light Green and Traditional Blue patinas. The basic method is to heat the metal to about 220 degrees or the point where water steams when sprayed on, spray on the chemicals, then flame that area. This being a first effort I overheated some areas while underheating others. I also over-flamed some and under-flamed others. Some of the chemicals produce a different color than expected.



You may notice the picture above has a lot of blue and reds and some yellow spots. This was done by design and I was happy with this result. However, the vendor advised me to apply a coat of fine wax (Renaissance) which, unfortunatley, changed the color of the yellow and muted the others. I viewed a video on their website where the demonstrator advised not to wax green or blue patinas, rather to let it cool and apply Permalac laquer. I could not tell from the David Marks DIY page whether I should spray the final coat with water to stop the reaction. He had mentioned spraying off the panel between applications of chemicals, but I am still not clear about this.

In any event, the chemicals continued to react and the panel is much more green than these photos, although it still looks good. I will post more pictures in a later blog, but here are some to give you an idea of the result.





Oh yeah, Scotsman, I meant to also say that there are four ways you can do the lamp. Three cold and one hot. The three cold patina options would be to use a solid metal, metal leaf, or metalic paint to cover the lamp then apply patinas that are made for cold application. David Marks demonstrated these on various projects on his DIY pages. Generally the cold application takes some time to 'cook'. For example, on one of his benches he wrapped the legs in sawdust and let them sit for three weeks. In his classes he uses gold, brass, or copper leaf. I think he just lets the project sit in the sun for awhile, but I don't know. There's a video of his class available on the ArtChemicals webpage.

The fourth or hot technique would be to use a thicker metal sheet or plate, apply a hot patina, then laminate the sheet to a base material like plywood. Lots of info available on the ArtChemicals and Sculpt Nouvau website. It does get confusing, but I guess if you watch and read enough it begins to make sense. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out and please share what you learn.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Bent Laminated Stays

There are a number of ways to hold the panel in place. You could cut a rabbet on the inside edge, or you could cut a groove on the inside of the stiles and rails like a cabinet door panel. I chose to stick with the method David Marks used, panel stays. Yet once again, there is an arch to deal with. This time I thought I would just use the top rail as a bending template for a bent lamination to ensure a good fit. The plan was to resaw thin strips 2" wide and just long enough to fit the opening when bent. They would then be cut to fit between the vertical stays. (you can see from the photos how much the panel had 'greened' up since the last photos)

After resawing some strips I sent them through the drum sander for a consistent thickness and to remove saw marks.



I then applied Titebond III to one side and bent them in to place using the gate frame as a bending form then applied clamps.





After some time to cook I ended up with a perfectly fitting laminate. I then sliced it in two pieces on the bandsaw, jointed the edges, and ran them, along with the other stays, through the planer.





Then I marked for the precise angle to fit them between the vertical stays. The cutoff sled is proving to be a valuable tool.



I glued and nailed the bottom stays in place, cut the arch in the panel, and put it all together for fitting. More about all that in the next Blog.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Pre-Finish

Nothing real exciting at this point. Just wanted to have a complete blog on this project. I used the Turnlock System and Circle Jig by Milescraft to cut the arch in the panel. I noticed a nice review was posted by Teenagewoodworker on this jig and plan to my experience and thoughts when I get a chance.



The bent laminations fit nicely and the whole thing easily went together, which is a pleasant change from my normal routine.



I installed one side of the stays and left the others so I could finish the frame separate from the panel. Here's is the final fitting before applying finish. BTW, the photo is a faithful representation of the panel's colors.

 

· Registered
Joined
·
334 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Ready to hang

First… after seeing Trifern's secrets on dyeing I wonder how a door would look? Guess I'll have to give it a try. Anyway, here's the gate with several coats of outdoor oil over some redwood stain. The colors in the photo are pretty accurate. The top picture gives a good comparison of the treated and untreated copper panel.



Once the gate is hung I will post a final blog on this series with photos and some specifications and tips I learned on this project. And I will post some photos on the projects tab. Hope you enjoyed this series as much as I've enjoyed documenting it. I also hope some other LJs build some of these so I can compare finishes and such.



Here's a shot of the back.

 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top