One thing to consider is how long it'd take to set up the cnc to make the cuts vs how long it'd take with a slider table saw, I would imagine it'd be more time spent with the cnc, but I also don't know anything about cnc. I will say this, if I had the space and $ for a 4' x 8' cnc machine, I'd totally get one for that same reason, breaking down sheet goods is among my least favorite things to do
cnc router to replace sliding table saw
I am in the process of planning my dream shop which hopefully will become a real shop about 2 years from now. So I am looking at sliding table saws of course, but then I got to thinking why not use a cnc router table to break down panels, They cut perfectly straight chip free with the right bit. plus you can do all the cool stuff like make spirals and all sorts of goofy shapes. Im starting to look into pricing and have asked a few companies, but i imagine its not much more than a slider, some sliders can go for 30 grand.
ok so i must admit I dont know what the term nesting means please explain
ok so i must admit I dont know what the term nesting means please explain
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
I prefer a CNC myself too but not all of them are equally well-suited for sheet good work. You'll also need decent nesting software to efficiently transfer your cuts to the CNC. It can take awhile to layout the cutting paths if you do each piece manually.
We are looking to upgrade to a CNC. I don't think a CNC will completely take the place of a table saw. We have 3 table saws in our shop and plan to keep all 3 when we get the CNC.
It seems there are a lot of advantages a CNC will have over a table saw. We are getting excited about our near future upgrade to a CNC. We are looking at nesting and cutting out cabinets on a very regular basis.
It seems there are a lot of advantages a CNC will have over a table saw. We are getting excited about our near future upgrade to a CNC. We are looking at nesting and cutting out cabinets on a very regular basis.
I think a CNC will cost a whole lot more than a saw. Router bits will get dull much faster than a good saw blade. You would need 1/4 bits as a minimum for stiffness for cutting 3/4 sheet goods; a lot of waste.
That depends upon whether he's cutting mostly square panels or not. By the time nesting is figured in, there's usually less waste in CNC routing. If all the cuts are straight and aligned with each other then the saw starts to make more sense.
The OP is specifically referring to sliding table saws and not cabinet saws. I assume he'll keep a cabinet saw in the shop and just replace the cabinet saw with a CNC router.
The OP is specifically referring to sliding table saws and not cabinet saws. I assume he'll keep a cabinet saw in the shop and just replace the cabinet saw with a CNC router.
With CNC panel processing you'll also need to consider the
power requirements of the vacuum pumps used to hold
panels down.
A sliding table saw is useful in ways other than everyday
panel cutting.
power requirements of the vacuum pumps used to hold
panels down.
A sliding table saw is useful in ways other than everyday
panel cutting.
A decent CNC is no good without decent software. A good nesting program can cost almost as much as the machine. (Things to consider)
Cabinetvision is proven to manage fairly large production of nested parts with a high degree of automation. It does require, however, that you spend some time defining your construction methods and materials. Once set up, though, I've seen no faster way to output nested parts to the CNC. Cabinetvision solid with screen to machine can cost upwards of $15k to $30k depending on options.
So, keep the software costs in mind, (initial purchase and setup time) when comparing against a sliding table saw.
Cabinetvision is proven to manage fairly large production of nested parts with a high degree of automation. It does require, however, that you spend some time defining your construction methods and materials. Once set up, though, I've seen no faster way to output nested parts to the CNC. Cabinetvision solid with screen to machine can cost upwards of $15k to $30k depending on options.
So, keep the software costs in mind, (initial purchase and setup time) when comparing against a sliding table saw.
DS and I both use Cabinet Vision and can attest to it's effectiveness in nesting a sheet of parts for use on a CNC Router. The time spent setting up the construction methods is well worth it if you have a CNC machine (with ATC- automatic tool change) that will do the lineboring, rabbets, dados, and part cutout (shaped and square).
It used to take me 20 minutes just to optimize, rip and crosscut one sheet of 4×8 plywood on our sliding table saw. And then I had to do the rabbets, dados and lineboring.
Now, for our standard faceframe construction, all of that is done in less than 5 minutes on our router.
Our production jumped quite a bit after we purchased the router. We can make a lot more cabinets in a shorter amount of time. We can also do things we could never do before…
If you have the clients, then it's well worth it.
It used to take me 20 minutes just to optimize, rip and crosscut one sheet of 4×8 plywood on our sliding table saw. And then I had to do the rabbets, dados and lineboring.
Now, for our standard faceframe construction, all of that is done in less than 5 minutes on our router.
Our production jumped quite a bit after we purchased the router. We can make a lot more cabinets in a shorter amount of time. We can also do things we could never do before…
If you have the clients, then it's well worth it.
No one has answered his question of what does nesting mean.
Nesting means putting the parts close together to maximize the use of the wood. For example, if you are cutting panels that all measure the same it is easy to figure out the optimum way to get the most out of each sheet. However, if you have many different sizes coming from the same panel, it gets a little more complicated. Nesting software can do that part of the job for you.
I got rid of my table saw after getting going with my cnc. Some things might be a tad quicker on the table saw but I now have more room for other things.
Nesting means putting the parts close together to maximize the use of the wood. For example, if you are cutting panels that all measure the same it is easy to figure out the optimum way to get the most out of each sheet. However, if you have many different sizes coming from the same panel, it gets a little more complicated. Nesting software can do that part of the job for you.
I got rid of my table saw after getting going with my cnc. Some things might be a tad quicker on the table saw but I now have more room for other things.
I've turned over most of my sheet processing to my Shopbot CNC (excellent user community support). A number of reasons for this:
1. When the sheet is held down well (vacuum), cuts are perfect.
2. Really weird shapes can be nested very easily.
3. I can include all joinery (dado's, M&T joints, wood screw pre-drill, etc. and whatever hardware holes (shelf pin holes, hinge holes, drawer slide holes, etc. I need to mill and the CNC does them all well
4. I put the sheet on the CNC table and let the CNC do the rest. No more manhandling heavy sheets anymore. I sheet of 3/4" melamine can way as much as 100 lbs. A high density sheet of 3/4" MDF can weight in at 110 lbs.
5. When I process large numbers of sheets, the nesting software does a really good job of minimizing waste, much more then being able to cut just strait lines on the TS
Don't get me wrong, I use my Delta cabinet saw (I've had since 1996) daily. I couldn't run my business without it. The CNC is just another tool in the shop. A big feature of the CNC is that I can turn it loose processing sheet goods, while I'm working on solid wood parts (faceframes, doors, drawer faces, etc.). I's like having another employee, but they don't show up late, go home early, complain, take long lunchs, get sick, etc. They can have an occasional brain fart but it is a computer after all and what computers don't have occasional brain farts…
As far as software, it all depends on what you are going to use the machine for. I use eCabinets (free from Thermwood - great user community support) and a program called Shopbot Link ($1200 new). eCabinets is great for designing layouts, and cabinets and showing them in 3D to customers. It has a steep learning curve but once you learn to use it, it is great. I use Vectric Aspire for all my other vector (and 3D) designing and machining needs. Great piece of software and excellent user community support.
So, remember that a CNC is just another tool in the shop. Figure out in your work processes if it is going to be an asset or a liability.
1. When the sheet is held down well (vacuum), cuts are perfect.
2. Really weird shapes can be nested very easily.
3. I can include all joinery (dado's, M&T joints, wood screw pre-drill, etc. and whatever hardware holes (shelf pin holes, hinge holes, drawer slide holes, etc. I need to mill and the CNC does them all well
4. I put the sheet on the CNC table and let the CNC do the rest. No more manhandling heavy sheets anymore. I sheet of 3/4" melamine can way as much as 100 lbs. A high density sheet of 3/4" MDF can weight in at 110 lbs.
5. When I process large numbers of sheets, the nesting software does a really good job of minimizing waste, much more then being able to cut just strait lines on the TS
Don't get me wrong, I use my Delta cabinet saw (I've had since 1996) daily. I couldn't run my business without it. The CNC is just another tool in the shop. A big feature of the CNC is that I can turn it loose processing sheet goods, while I'm working on solid wood parts (faceframes, doors, drawer faces, etc.). I's like having another employee, but they don't show up late, go home early, complain, take long lunchs, get sick, etc. They can have an occasional brain fart but it is a computer after all and what computers don't have occasional brain farts…
As far as software, it all depends on what you are going to use the machine for. I use eCabinets (free from Thermwood - great user community support) and a program called Shopbot Link ($1200 new). eCabinets is great for designing layouts, and cabinets and showing them in 3D to customers. It has a steep learning curve but once you learn to use it, it is great. I use Vectric Aspire for all my other vector (and 3D) designing and machining needs. Great piece of software and excellent user community support.
So, remember that a CNC is just another tool in the shop. Figure out in your work processes if it is going to be an asset or a liability.
Well this sure is an old post but I got a slider. It's OK. Honestly I think I would have preferred a vertical panel saw. I do lots of sheet goods. But the combo unit I purchased saved lots of space and money.
I had/have a vertical with my business. When I closed and went to work for a different furniture company, I have a Excalibur then a felder slider.Well this sure is an old post but I got a slider. It s OK. Honestly I think I would have preferred a vertical panel saw. I do lots of sheet goods. But the combo unit I purchased saved lots of space and money.
- squazo
Both have advantages. Vertical take up little space and is extremely fast/safe. The slider is far more versatile and produces a little better cut. Better dust collection also.
After using both, I'd take a slider if I have the space and not interested in speed.
what did you do on your slider for a zerco clearance insert? I finally have some time off work to play around in my shop and I am trying to build a ZCI. The problem is the throat plate is made of 1/8th inch aluminum. actually just a hair over 1/8th. So I am probably going to use 1/8th MDF and shim it with laminate or something. Did you like using the scoring blade? I havent even put mine on yet. To busy with work.Well this sure is an old post but I got a slider. It s OK. Honestly I think I would have preferred a vertical panel saw. I do lots of sheet goods. But the combo unit I purchased saved lots of space and money.
- squazo
I had/have a vertical with my business. When I closed and went to work for a different furniture company, I have a Excalibur then a felder slider.
Both have advantages. Vertical take up little space and is extremely fast/safe. The slider is far more versatile and produces a little better cut. Better dust collection also.
After using both, I'd take a slider if I have the space and not interested in speed.
- CWWoodworking
It just has a custom made insert, no scoring blade. Wish it did. But the cut is still really really nice compared to a cabinet saw. The endless amount of power and smooth action of it is key. We use quite a bit of Baltic birch and thicker sheet goods. 3hp Cabinet saws not even close to the power of the felder.
I have a question for you about your insert. Does your sliding table ride slightly higher than it? I made a insert today and it doesn't help with the tear out. Its sits flush with the iron table but my sliding table sits a 32nd or so higher than it and the iron, thus leaving a 32nd gap between the plywood and the insert which I understand is to help reduce friction while sliding sheet goods. After having them fail at reducing tear out I decided to try the scoring blade, and it completely eliminated the tear out, quite impressive really. I probably should have tried that first but I figure an insert will come in handy anyways. By the way Im using a brand new 80 or maybe 90 tooth freud "ultimate something plywood blade" full kerf 10 inch and the scoring blade is whatever the fine people at SCM sent with the saw.
So I have a CNC router in my shop that I purchased off of someone who built it. It's been in my shop for about 2 - 3 years now.
Here are some things to consider when determining if a CNC router is going to be a good fit for you:
Finally, are you comfortable using a hand operated router? The reason I bring this up is that when you use a router in either a router table or by hand, you learn about feed rates, rotation speed of the bit, and most important what a router should smell and sound like. When you use a CNC, you're not holding the router any longer so you need to rely on the sound of the router more and understand what is a good or acceptable smell versus what isn't.
The sound and smell can tell you if the machine is;
It took me about 5 years of researching on and off again with a few mentors before I even considered buying a CNC. Keep in mind that only in the last few years has CNC gone from a prosumer / professional level requirement to a consumer level of knowledge. Software simplification and the internet are major driving factors.
When you get a CNC you need to remember that you will crash it, stuff will break, projects will be totally ruined because of that one little detail you thought would be ok just this one time. You'll be frustrated, stressed, angry, and really excited when something works.
All of those are ok. Remember, there are other people out there you can ask for help or bounce ideas off of. You'll be fine.
Happy Making!
Here are some things to consider when determining if a CNC router is going to be a good fit for you:
- What are you currently making that you will move to the CNC?
- What projects would you like to make that you currently cannot with the set of tools in your shop would justify the CNC?
- Are you comfortable using multiple software packets to make a single project? Unless you are using a software that supports both CAD, CAM, and Control; you'll need at least 2 if not 3
- CAD (Solidworks, Inventor, AutoDesk, Sketchup, Fusion 360, Lightburn, etc.)
- CAM (VCarve, Fusion 360, Solidworks, Lightburn, etc.)
- Control Software (MACH3, MACH4, Light Burn, etc.)
- Software costs money
- Annual subscription(s)
- One time investment
- If you find that you aren't making multiple copies of the same project, the setup time for design (CAD), programming the router (CAM), setting up the tooling in the CNC, setting up the fixtures / clamps, etc. could take longer to do than actually making a cut on the tablesaw or other "manual" tool or series of tools.
- Are you going to make complex shapes such as curves that will eliminate the need of other equipment?
- X-axis and Y-axis
- X, Y, and Z-axis carving / milling
- What size projects are you going to make? The bigger the project piece, the bigger the working area that is required and possibly the bigger the router / motor that is required.
- CNC routers have several consumables
- Router bits
- hold down hardware
- fixtures
- They are LOUD! You'll have a router running the entire time that it is cutting. Even with PPE, having that level of decibels might not be comfortable for you to experience over hours.
- Dust collection is almost mandatory. Dust particle size goes way down with a CNC router versus a hand router.
- CNCs take a lot more maintenance time than a tablesaw and have a higher annual cost due to consumables
- Are you good with some level of electronics troubleshooting? You don't need to be an electrician, just know how to identify parts of the electrical system for trouble shooting if you need to contact customer support for help (if you buy an off the shelf machine)?
- Are you ok with troubleshooting a computer? Not Bill Gates level, but understand how to install / uninstall programs
- There is a learning curve when using a CNC. Do you have the time to invest in learning a complex system of tools to make a part? Are you ok with the CNC machine sitting collecting dust until you are comfortable using it?
- Will you be engraving? If so on what? There are different methods to engrave for different materials. You may be able to use the machine you get to perform those different methods.
- If you buy something now, can you upgrade it to something you might need in the future?
Finally, are you comfortable using a hand operated router? The reason I bring this up is that when you use a router in either a router table or by hand, you learn about feed rates, rotation speed of the bit, and most important what a router should smell and sound like. When you use a CNC, you're not holding the router any longer so you need to rely on the sound of the router more and understand what is a good or acceptable smell versus what isn't.
The sound and smell can tell you if the machine is;
- Feeding faster than it is cutting and is being bogged down
- The bit isn't actually cutting efficiently because of tool chatter
- If the bit is getting dull mid cut / program (burning)
- Chip removal isn't processed correctly because of low dust collection vacuum pressure, chips are burning, etc.
- The plunge rate is to fast or slow
- etc.
It took me about 5 years of researching on and off again with a few mentors before I even considered buying a CNC. Keep in mind that only in the last few years has CNC gone from a prosumer / professional level requirement to a consumer level of knowledge. Software simplification and the internet are major driving factors.
When you get a CNC you need to remember that you will crash it, stuff will break, projects will be totally ruined because of that one little detail you thought would be ok just this one time. You'll be frustrated, stressed, angry, and really excited when something works.
All of those are ok. Remember, there are other people out there you can ask for help or bounce ideas off of. You'll be fine.
Happy Making!
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
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