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Bowed wall and a french cleat

2786 Views 22 Replies 12 Participants Last post by Trevg, May 12, 2022

Trevg

Discussion Starter · May 6, 2022 (Edited by Moderator)

2

Hi all. I'm in the mental stages of planning a closet remodel. We have carpet, and I would like space under the closet cubbies for being able to store plastic bins for winter clothes, etc. So I'm thinking french cleat is the way to go here. With all that said, I know through recent work done on my house, there's the occasional bowed wall. How to you go about leveling a french cleat onto a bowed wall? Because I know that if the cleat is bowed, and the cabinet is not, then the cleat won't hook in. I get shims is the process, but how does that work on a wall with sheetrock and studs 16" apart. Thank you all for your time and expertise for this fairly newbie wood worker. Take care.

Posted a photo as a reference but closet will be on a larger scale and I would install pull out drawers as well for the cubbies.

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controlfreak

· #2 · May 6, 2022

Throw a straight edge to see how off it is first. If not too bad and the cleat has enough thickness to support the weight it will naturally cinch the piece to the wall. If out a lot you may need to shim a bit and make other adjustments. May also want solid stock for cleats as plywood can weaken considerably as yo get closer to the last few layers.

bilyo

· #3 · May 6, 2022

As controlfreak said, the best way is to do some checking, measuring, and testing before building. If the boxes you are hanging are narrow, they will accommodate a slight bow in the wall more easily. If your boxes are wide and they fall right where the bow is most severe, then you may need to put a curve in the back of the box to accommodate the bow. Cut a straight board to match the width of the box you are building and hold it to the wall where each box will hang. This will tell you what you need to do in that spot.

I second not using plywood for the cleats.

CaptainKlutz

· #4 · May 6, 2022 (Edited by Moderator)

+1 check scope of problem first, use a LONG straight edge.
A 4ft level only touches 3 studs, so better to use a 6 ft or 8ft level when checking wall flatness.

+1 solid wood only.
Check cleat grain direction as you want flat sawn grain, not rift sawn or quarter sawn grain where cleat angle is cut.

Shimming a cleat to have flat front is not too hard. It reduces complexity of building boxes specific to one wall section.
With production boxes; the cleat is anchored to be flat on front, with screws through shims at studs as needed. If unevenness is severe and visible to customer; scribe a matching wall line on extended cabinet edge, or a 1×2 strip attached to wall.

Was taught a tip when hanging cleats: Use air nailer and brads to temporally secure the cleat to drywall at right height and level. Next brad nail shims in center of cleat at each stud to make face flat. Pre-drill screw holes and put 2 screws into each stud, double checking flatness and adjust as needed. When done, trim the excess shims with utility knife. Fill the nail/screw holes, sand and paint the outside. When cabinets are stacked, only top most one that is visible needs a scribe piece to hide any wall gap.

Cheers!

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JCamp

· #5 · May 6, 2022

Using a 2×4 French cleat would give them plenty enough contact regardless of a minor bow. As mentioned above you could always do it and shim but wouldn't be necessary with a bigger board like a 2x

Trevg

Discussion Starter · #6 · May 6, 2022

Throw a straight edge to see how off it is first. If not too bad and the cleat has enough thickness to support the weight it will naturally cinch the piece to the wall. If out a lot you may need to shim a bit and make other adjustments. May also want solid stock for cleats as plywood can weaken considerably as yo get closer to the last few layers.

- controlfreak

Thanks for the response everyone. Thank you for the plywood cleat tip. I planned on using southern yellow pine for the cleats. I've got a 6-8 ft straight level. So no worries there. I was definitely planning to check walls and which spots are most bowed before even designing layout. My main question, for everyone really, is how do you go about shimming? In my mind I see shimming the cleat underneath where the studs are, but when you go to drill the cleat into the stud, will that then split the shim? Since shims are usually thin. It's hard to find any videos and post on that specific question. Thank you.

Trevg

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 6, 2022

As controlfreak said, the best way is to do some checking, measuring, and testing before building. If the boxes you are hanging are narrow, they will accommodate a slight bow in the wall more easily. If your boxes are wide and they fall right where the bow is most severe, then you may need to put a curve in the back of the box to accommodate the bow. Cut a straight board to match the width of the box you are building and hold it to the wall where each box will hang. This will tell you what you need to do in that spot.

I second not using plywood for the cleats.

- bilyo

Thanks. I planned on using southern yellow pine for the cleats. I've got a 6-8 ft straight level. So no worries there. By putting a bow in the back of the box, do you mean shim the half of the cleat that's attached to the back of the cabinet/cubby? How would you go about curving the backside of a cabinet/cubby? Thank you.

Trevg

Discussion Starter · #8 · May 6, 2022

+1 check scope of problem first, use a LONG straight edge.
A 4ft level only touches 3 studs, so better to use a 6 ft or 8ft level when checking wall flatness.

+1 solid wood only.
Check cleat grain direction as you want flat sawn grain, not rift sawn or quarter sawn grain where cleat angle is cut.

Shimming a cleat to have flat front is not too hard. It reduces complexity of building boxes specific to one wall section.
With production boxes; the cleat is anchored to be flat on front, with screws through shims at studs as needed. If unevenness is severe and visible to customer; scribe a matching wall line on extended cabinet edge, or a 1×2 strip attached to wall.

Was taught a tip when hanging cleats: Use air nailer and brads to temporally secure the cleat to drywall at right height and level. Next brad nail shims in center of cleat at each stud to make face flat. Pre-drill screw holes and put 2 screws into each stud, double checking flatness and adjust as needed. When done, trim the excess shims with utility knife. Fill the nail/screw holes, sand and paint the outside. When cabinets are stacked, only top most one that is visible needs a scribe piece to hide any wall gap.

Cheers!

- CaptainKlutz

Thanks for the great tips. I'll write these down. So shims won't split when drilled through attaching the cleat to the stud? Thank you.

bold1

· #9 · May 6, 2022

Installing kitchens in old homes that had plaster stripped and replaced with drywall, sometimes you would find 2 to 3" of bow. We would stretch a mason's line at the height of the cleat 6" out from the corners, and measure back from it to aline the cleat. Easiest way I've ever found for one man to aline something on a bowed wall.

smitdog

· #10 · May 6, 2022

Instead of your top cleat running the full width of the box you could just put a short piece of cleat in both upper corners. Same with the spacer along the bottom, just put a short spacer in both bottom corners. That way if there is a bow you're not trying to engage it along the entire width of your box.

LeeRoyMan

· #11 · May 6, 2022

2

This is how I would do it, if I had to scribe it to the back wall.

I would make the top hang over the cabinet 1/2"
I would recess the back on the cabinet 1"
I would use a 3/4" cleat for the cabinet and a 1" cleat for the wall.

After the cabinet was built I would put it against the wall where it's going to go, set it on some blocks or whatever it takes to set it to the right height.
Then I would use my scribe pencil set at 1/2" and follow the backwall.
Cut off the scribe and it should fit the wall.

To find the spot to mount your wall cleat:
Measure from the top of the cabinet to the bottom of the french cleat. (You can see it's 7" in my example)
Measure from the height that you want the cabinet on the wall, the distance you measured for the cleat.
This is where you mount the wall cleat. If all went well it should sit perfect.

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xedos

· #12 · May 6, 2022

Forget "French cleats" of wood.

Use a suspension system instead.

https://www.woodworkerexpress.com/Wall-Cabinet-Hang-Rail-Systems/

therealSteveN

· #13 · May 7, 2022

2

I too would scribe the piece to the wall, at or near the height I wanted it. Generally for empty units a stack of heavy storage containers with lids on, can get you to 6' or so. Sometimes on thick carpet you need to put a square of plywood down first to level a shag like carpet, which otherwise can flip with a load on your containers.

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Storage containers, always useful.

For a scribe I really like the Simple Scribe. it offers 7 different stand offs from 1/4" to 1" Sometimes a fixed size just doesn't work depending on gap.

Scribe your line, cut/sand to the line, and you are ready to hang.

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bilyo

· #14 · May 7, 2022

As controlfreak said, the best way is to do some checking, measuring, and testing before building. If the boxes you are hanging are narrow, they will accommodate a slight bow in the wall more easily. If your boxes are wide and they fall right where the bow is most severe, then you may need to put a curve in the back of the box to accommodate the bow. Cut a straight board to match the width of the box you are building and hold it to the wall where each box will hang. This will tell you what you need to do in that spot.

I second not using plywood for the cleats.

- bilyo

Thanks. I planned on using southern yellow pine for the cleats. I ve got a 6-8 ft straight level. So no worries there. By putting a bow in the back of the box, do you mean shim the half of the cleat that s attached to the back of the cabinet/cubby? How would you go about curving the backside of a cabinet/cubby? Thank you.

- Trevg

It is hard to give a precise answer without knowing how severe the bow is and how much load your cabinet will hold. You could do as smitdog says above and just use a pair of short hangers that will engage the wall cleat at the sides of the cabinet. However, if the cabinet rests at the center of the bow, then the center of the cabinet back will have to accommodate the bow. If you think the full width of the cabinet must engage the wall cleat, then the hanger cleat on the cabinet back must have a matching bow. Exactly how you do this also depends on how tightly you want the cabinets to fit against the wall and how much of a gap between cabinet units you can allow (straight cabinets on a curved wall won't abut squarely or with perfect alignment).

Foghorn

· #15 · May 7, 2022

2

This is how I would do it, if I had to scribe it to the back wall.

I would make the top hang over the cabinet 1/2"
I would recess the back on the cabinet 1"
I would use a 3/4" cleat for the cabinet and a 1" cleat for the wall.

After the cabinet was built I would put it against the wall where it s going to go, set it on some blocks or whatever it takes to set it to the right height.
Then I would use my scribe pencil set at 1/2" and follow the backwall.
Cut off the scribe and it should fit the wall.

To find the spot to mount your wall cleat:
Measure from the top of the cabinet to the bottom of the french cleat. (You can see it s 7" in my example)
Measure from the height that you want the cabinet on the wall, the distance you measured for the cleat.
This is where you mount the wall cleat. If all went well it should sit perfect.

- LeeRoyMan

This is what I would do too even though I don't have LeeRoyMan's experience.

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Trevg

Discussion Starter · #16 · May 9, 2022

Forget "French cleats" of wood.

Use a suspension system instead.

https://www.woodworkerexpress.com/Wall-Cabinet-Hang-Rail-Systems/

- xedos

Thanks xedos. Wouldn't the rail system have same issue regardless french cleat or not? It would still either not hook or cause the cabinet to bow correct?

Trevg

Discussion Starter · #17 · May 9, 2022

Instead of your top cleat running the full width of the box you could just put a short piece of cleat in both upper corners. Same with the spacer along the bottom, just put a short spacer in both bottom corners. That way if there is a bow you re not trying to engage it along the entire width of your box.

- smitdog

Will absolutely consider this unless anyone here mentions a strong reason not too? Thank you smitdog.

Trevg

Discussion Starter · #18 · May 9, 2022

2

This is how I would do it, if I had to scribe it to the back wall.

I would make the top hang over the cabinet 1/2"
I would recess the back on the cabinet 1"
I would use a 3/4" cleat for the cabinet and a 1" cleat for the wall.

After the cabinet was built I would put it against the wall where it s going to go, set it on some blocks or whatever it takes to set it to the right height.
Then I would use my scribe pencil set at 1/2" and follow the backwall.
Cut off the scribe and it should fit the wall.

To find the spot to mount your wall cleat:
Measure from the top of the cabinet to the bottom of the french cleat. (You can see it s 7" in my example)
Measure from the height that you want the cabinet on the wall, the distance you measured for the cleat.
This is where you mount the wall cleat. If all went well it should sit perfect.

- LeeRoyMan

This is what I would do too even though I don t have LeeRoyMan s experience.

- Foghorn

I will definitely think this through. I understand the process, you explained it well and the picture helps more than you know. This should then make it flush with other boxes that are lining up next to it right?

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bilyo

· #19 · May 9, 2022

Another way to do this would be to make the back out of thicker material like 1/2" or 3/4" ply and then just put screws with washers through that into the studs. You can use a many screws as you think you need to support the weight. Where the wall is bowed, you will need to shim it. I did this with a small medicine cabinet where it is positioned over only one stud. I just screwed through the 1/2" back with 3 screws into one stud. Has held for many years. You will have to judge whether this will work in your situation depending on how heavy you cabinets are

waho6o9

· #20 · May 9, 2022

2

Level the French cleat to the wall. Leave room to slide in the end panels and partitions. Sometimes you have to scribe and or shave some panels. This will be a good skill building job for you.
Notch the panels to match the cleat and slide them in.

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