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Dries too fast

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Review by EarlS posted 01-10-2021 04:34 PM 804 views 1 time favorited 9 comments Add to Favorites Watch
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Product Description

Old Masters® Masters Armor™ water-based acrylic finish provides a beautiful topcoat with excellent clarity and durability. It is easy to apply, dries to the touch in just 30 minutes, and is ready for recoating after 1 to 2 hours. This means you can easily apply three coats in a single day. Lends a beautiful finishing touch to floors, cabinets, furniture, and almost any other type of interior woodwork. Available in flat, satin, semi-gloss and gloss sheens.

Conclusion:
The finish dries so fast the finish doesn’t have time to settle into a level surface before it starts drying.

The Old Masters version is better than the comparable Minwax version of water based acrylic finish.

Since it dries very fast, you can apply multiple coats in the same amount of time that it would take for one oil based poly coat to dry.

It needed a lot of extra sanding to eliminate any ridges from the applicator.

The finish feels like a hard shell over the wood rather than the “soft” feel from oil based poly.

My experience:

I used the Satin version of this finish on a Maple desk since I didn’t want the yellowing that comes from using regular polyurethane on Maple.

The Maple was sealed with Zinsser Seal Coat and lightly sanded prior to using this finish.

The directions recommend using a foam brush, which I did. The finish started drying almost as soon as it was applied making it very difficult to brush out any streaks or ridges without messing the finish up even more. I wound up pouring the finish onto the desk top and very quickly brushing the puddle out to the edges with no chance to come back and even out the finish.

Generally, with oil based poly, the finish flows easily and the brush marks settle out, leaving a nice level surface. Not so with this since it dries so fast.

Since it dries very fast, so I was able to come back a couple hours later and sand down the ridges with 220 grit before applying the next coat. Sanding down the ridges took a lot longer than the typical light sanding between coats with an oil based poly. After the 3rd (final) coat, I still had to sand down the ridges with 220 grit, the progress up thru 800 grit, which is the finest Mirka Abranet I have on my ROS. The finish appeared dull, rather than having a satin sheen so I used some wax to bring back a bit of sheen.

-- Earl "I'm a pessamist - generally that increases the chance that things will turn out better than expected"




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EarlS

4222 posts in 3324 days



9 comments so far

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

6404 posts in 2364 days


#1 posted 01-10-2021 05:47 PM

What was the humidity like? Do you think that may have played a role in it drying so fast?

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View GR8HUNTER's profile

GR8HUNTER

8263 posts in 1689 days


#2 posted 01-10-2021 05:47 PM

wondering if you would use a retarder if that would work :<)))))

-- Tony---- Reinholds,Pa.------ REMEMBER TO ALWAYS HAVE FUN :<))

View duckmilk's profile

duckmilk

4425 posts in 2301 days


#3 posted 01-10-2021 10:25 PM

Would it be possible to spray it or would that create more problems?

-- "Duck and Bob would be out doin some farming with funny hats on." chrisstef

View EarlS's profile

EarlS

4222 posts in 3324 days


#4 posted 01-11-2021 01:09 AM

Duck – according to the instructions it can be sprayed though I wonder if it would dry even faster since the HVLP sprayer air is hot.

Tony – I thought about getting something to slow the cure time down but I would like to think they considered the drying time when the formula was developed.

Nathan – it was 65 deg in my shop. It shouldn’t have dried so fast. My recollection of the MinWax version was that it was slower drying but it really raised the grain even though I used sealer which this did not do. I also recall trying the General Finishes version and not liking it because it raised the grain quite a lot as well as taking a lot more coats to build up a finish.

I’m going to stick with my Arm-R-Seal and Seal-A-Cell. I’m much more in favor of oil based finishes than water based ones.

-- Earl "I'm a pessamist - generally that increases the chance that things will turn out better than expected"

View Carey  Mitchell's profile

Carey Mitchell

183 posts in 2935 days


#5 posted 01-11-2021 05:30 PM

Re the use of sealers, here’s an interesting article I got yesterday that sheds light on them. Flexner is a credible source, and I follow his advice religiously.

The only thing I use is shellac to isolate layers of stains/finish.

On the subject of shellac. I recently picked up a small can of Zinnzer orange shellac at Roclkers. When I opened it, it was very cloudy and there was a dark brown residue around the edge of the rim, plus a gell material. There was no date on the can. Read the instructions , which said not to use if more than 3 years past the date stamped. OK, where’s the date?

Borrowed a quart can from a neighbor and it was the same, no date.

Zinnzer is now owned by Rustoleum. I called the help line and the lady swore there were dates and implied that I was just too dumb to find them. Asked me to email photos of tops and bottoms, which I did. She immediately offered a refund.

I explained that I spent my life in manufacturing, and that the ability to trace a product is absolutely critical – especially if the company is sued. suggested that somebody’s head shoud roll and that their product stewardship people get involved. Told her that they should be able to track a can to a a production line, to the exact minute it was canned, then to a retained sample in their archive, , and then track every component back to a vendor, who could track their production and retained samples. Told her I had done this many times in defense of suits and that it is critical in winning or losing.

I think I scared her, which was my intent. That is inexcusable. Sorry for the rant…....

View Lazyman's profile

Lazyman

6404 posts in 2364 days


#6 posted 01-11-2021 06:20 PM

Sounds like Rustoleum screwed up. Both of the cans I have purchased have a date code printed on the lid. Of course that does you no good if you don’t know how to decode it. It’s not hard if you know the code but why use a code when the label says not to use beyond a certain time frame.

-- Nathan, TX -- Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.

View CaptainKlutz's profile

CaptainKlutz

4015 posts in 2471 days


#7 posted 01-11-2021 09:50 PM

Sorry to read about about your product challenge.

Haven’t seen or used this stuff. May have to grab a can for some testing?

1) Brush marks:
Have NEVER seen a WB finish applied by brush straight from can that could be touched up ‘while wet’, without leaving brush marks. WB finishes cross link via oxygen exposure, and create films just like oil based varnish, only faster. IME – Need to thin WB finishes, and/or spray for best results.
Varathane floor finishes have longest ‘open’ time I have seen, where you can touch up a spot. But only get a couple extra minutes. You can not finish a project and then go back and touch up without leaving marks, like oil based finish allows. Most of time it is best to leave runs alone and remove with NIB file and buff out when dry.

The low average 5-20% humidity in my unconditioned Arizona shop makes any quick drying finish a challenge. Need to use all kinds of delay dry/cure tricks for finishing. Most WB mfg sell a retarder that is 20-40% polypropylene glycol and water. Even when applying WB on 70° & 30% RH winter day, need to use retarder and thin it down. WB mfg recommend using water as thinner. I find 50/50 Isopropyl alcohol and water is better thinner in warm weather, as evaporation rate for alcohol 1/2 that of water.

2) Shellac as sealer:
While shellac is universal finish, and works as barrier on top of stain/dye; it is not recommended by mfg under WB finishes designed to pass KCMA requirements. Shellac will dissolve in presence of alcohol. All finish films are permeable, and if alcohol gets underneath the top coat, shellac will discolor and/or lose adhesion (leaving permanent white glass rings). Mfg recommend and sell vinyl sealers to replace shellac as they won’t dissolve due alcohol; and these sealers are required for meeting KCMA tests. The latest versions are really easy to sand, and make OK clear grain filler too; just wish they were as cheap as shellac.

3) Armor grade WB coating technology:
Several overseas mfg have released tough armor grade WB coatings recently. Armor grade wood coatings have been available in EU for ~5 years now. Renner was one of the first to introduce tough wood coatings.
These new armor tough coatings are PITA to sand .

The toughness is achieved with unique mix of flexibility and surface hardness thanks to new resins, AND hard clear fillers. Many coatings are using aluminum oxide (think garnet sandpaper) as filler to make then tougher. Need to use hardest abrasives, and usually drop one grit size from normal to break resinous surface open for easier sanding.as they sand like concrete.

These new resins and fillers are same as those used on WB automotive clear coats, which might help you understand how tough they need to be? Generally once these clear coatings cure/dry (24-72 hrs); need to use silicon carbide or ceramic abrasives and/or wet sanding to remove runs/drips; as they laugh at normal sand paper (even the popular ‘gold’ grades).

Welcome to latest high tech polymer science in wood coatings, created by need to be environmentally friendly!

Best Luck.

-- If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all, - Albert King - Born Under a Bad Sign released 1967

View Carey  Mitchell's profile

Carey Mitchell

183 posts in 2935 days


#8 posted 01-12-2021 05:46 PM

Oops, left off the link to Flexner’s article

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/flexner-on-finishing-woodworking-blogs/flexner-on-finishing-sealers-what-are-they/?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=105914024&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9KxsQBv25ocXKpKjKbXIUuroA_sGi7udbZ4k-GiBkF1kS9Q1mM3a7YzSnHXB2H2g28mYVAd4x-U_RdRXfuhPLGGHn3ITK4IRvOLvGG7F-SusNUoa8&utm_content=105839944&utm_source=hs_email

Re the use of sealers, here s an interesting article I got yesterday that sheds light on them. Flexner is a credible source, and I follow his advice religiously.

The only thing I use is shellac to isolate layers of stains/finish.

On the subject of shellac. I recently picked up a small can of Zinnzer orange shellac at Roclkers. When I opened it, it was very cloudy and there was a dark brown residue around the edge of the rim, plus a gell material. There was no date on the can. Read the instructions , which said not to use if more than 3 years past the date stamped. OK, where s the date?

Borrowed a quart can from a neighbor and it was the same, no date.

Zinnzer is now owned by Rustoleum. I called the help line and the lady swore there were dates and implied that I was just too dumb to find them. Asked me to email photos of tops and bottoms, which I did. She immediately offered a refund.

I explained that I spent my life in manufacturing, and that the ability to trace a product is absolutely critical – especially if the company is sued. suggested that somebody s head shoud roll and that their product stewardship people get involved. Told her that they should be able to track a can to a a production line, to the exact minute it was canned, then to a retained sample in their archive, , and then track every component back to a vendor, who could track their production and retained samples. Told her I had done this many times in defense of suits and that it is critical in winning or losing.

I think I scared her, which was my intent. That is inexcusable. Sorry for the rant…....

- Carey Mitchell


View BurlyBob's profile

BurlyBob

8304 posts in 3242 days


#9 posted 01-14-2021 04:00 PM

When I built my wife’s new kitchen cabinets I used Watco Natural Danish oil to bring out the grain of the red oak. I contacted Charles Neil and on his recommendation I sprayed a 1lb cut of shellac prior to spraying a WB semigloss finish.
After the first coat I was really worried there would the need for a lot of touch up sanding. The finish had a ripple look to it. The next morning it was smooth as glass.

I bought several color test packs of shellac flakes from the Shellac Shack. I mixed my own Shellac and went to town.
From what I understand Zinnzer shellac is a 3lb cut and has a shelf life of a 3 years. I mix only what I need for a job
and avoid the waste.

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