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Looking for the right adhesive

by MrRon
posted 08-12-2017 09:49 PM


34 replies so far

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4035 days


#1 posted 08-12-2017 09:50 PM

I think something like liquid nails would stick.

View jonah's profile

jonah

2075 posts in 3686 days


#2 posted 08-13-2017 12:18 AM

I’d use a polyurethane construction adhesive. Liquid nails or similar.

View josephf's profile

josephf

216 posts in 2483 days


#3 posted 08-30-2017 04:30 AM

i have had a few failures with liquidnails . they have alot of products though . Pl premium has held up very well ,have never seen it fail . I have seen a tube/contruction adhesive for treated wood . do not recall brand .
recently used a liquid nails product and 3 days later it hadn’t set ,still runny .
oh -another thing , tried to use there big tubes for setting floor sheathing .tubes failed . had to stop the job ,drive to town for more .happened twice .
also use good [like GRK] screws to assemble the beams .clamp and screw . went back to a job i did 8 yrs ago .the treated wood had dried out and some of the nails were popping and most were loose .the places i used screws were still tight

View Rich's profile

Rich

4477 posts in 976 days


#4 posted 08-30-2017 04:45 AM

Ron, I think this is a similar situation to wood finishing. Do some test boards. It never hurts to wipe down with naphtha for a clean glue surface. If you’re concerned about flexing, then PVA glues might be a problem, since they do creep. DAP Weldwood is a good alternative to that in that it dries rigid and helps keep its shape. Crazy, I think this is the 3rd or 4th time this week I’ve recommenced DAP…lol

Again, I’d do some test glue ups and see what adheres the best and is the most rigid.

-- Knowledge is not skill. Knowledge plus ten thousand times is skill. -- Shinichi Suzuki

View Madmark2's profile

Madmark2

461 posts in 975 days


#5 posted 08-30-2017 04:46 AM

The key to good gluing is 100% coverage and good clamping no matter what the adhesive.

m

View AlaskaGuy's profile (online now)

AlaskaGuy

5276 posts in 2696 days


#6 posted 08-30-2017 07:08 AM

May I ask the size a use of the beam? Is it structural?

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Logan Windram's profile

Logan Windram

347 posts in 2849 days


#7 posted 08-30-2017 12:49 PM



The key to good gluing is 100% coverage and good clamping no matter what the adhesive.

m

- Madmark2

id add open time to this astute post…

View jonah's profile

jonah

2075 posts in 3686 days


#8 posted 08-30-2017 01:42 PM

I would nail the pieces together temporarily, but when framers make beams, they bolt them together. Nails alone will probably not suffice since the PT is likely ~25-30+% moisture content and will shrink significantly.

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MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#9 posted 08-30-2017 03:55 PM


May I ask the size a use of the beam? Is it structural?

- AlaskaGuy


The beam will be 16’ long and form an inverted “U” . There will be a 4×4 post at each end and one in the middle, secured with 1/2” carriage bolts, 2 per post. Each side of the beam will have joist hangers. The beam divides a 16’x16’ deck in half. I tend to over design everything; must be my naval shipbuilding background. It has been raining every day for the past 2 weeks and is projected to continue into next week, so I haven’t made much progress on this deck project. I am spending this down time making sure everything will go together as planned. I would post a drawing of the deck, but it wouldn’t show details. I hope my explanation will be adequate.

PS. The wood is sitting outside in the weather and is pretty wet.

View josephf's profile

josephf

216 posts in 2483 days


#10 posted 08-30-2017 05:03 PM

right off shrinkage will kill you . 99% percent sure anything but a butt joint will give you trouble .
I could sujest biscuits /or dominos [festool] and tb111 ,though as wet as the wood is i do not think miters have a chance .you’ll end up with bad miters which is way worse then a good butt joint.

View jonah's profile

jonah

2075 posts in 3686 days


#11 posted 08-31-2017 03:03 AM

You’re going to want to bolt it together, probably with stainless steel bolts every couple feet. Adhesive is fine, but you need a rock solid mechanical connection. Through bolts with fender washers and nuts.

View josephf's profile

josephf

216 posts in 2483 days


#12 posted 08-31-2017 03:16 AM

Pulled some treated ,brown and green stuff apart from 8-10 yrs .no problems on the galv bolts . I think ,based on my calif , bay area galv is fine .actually bolts probable waist of $ .Good screws .
I have not seen the plans . Not even sure what he is building .but it is outside .If the beams are exposed to weather on top use a membrane of some type to shed water .
I could see stainless if you have salt water nearby or it is a high end project . For a 100yr type build .

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jonah

2075 posts in 3686 days


#13 posted 08-31-2017 09:28 AM

It’ll be outside in the weather, so I’d spring for stainless bolts unless the cost difference is prohibitive.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#14 posted 09-01-2017 09:05 PM

Here is a sketch of the beam for my deck. Dimensions shown in inches. The adhesive will be between the 2×4 and the 2×8’s. Decking will go on top of this.

View josephf's profile

josephf

216 posts in 2483 days


#15 posted 09-01-2017 10:37 PM

oh i see .only bolts on the end/through 4×4 posts .2×4 are spacers stacked on the flat ? when you say decking are you referring to flooring or roof decking . i might have a chance to copy that . pretty simple,very sturdy and all material easily handled by one person .

View jonah's profile

jonah

2075 posts in 3686 days


#16 posted 09-01-2017 11:50 PM

As a general rule, I try not to build things where all the weight is carried by the fasteners. It is unavoidable sometimes, but it’s good practice to try to support things directly and design joints that way. That’s my only criticism of your setup.

I’d still bolt the “beam” together.

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MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#17 posted 09-02-2017 12:48 AM

Here is the entire deck. The beam divides the deck in half. Decking is 2×6. All posts (9) are bolted through with 1/2” galv bolts and nuts Boards are screwed down with 3” deck screws, 2 per joist. A small 8’ long x 4’ wide platform (lower right corner) will connect the deck to the concrete patio at the front of the house. I think this sketch puts everything in perspective.


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josephf

216 posts in 2483 days


#18 posted 09-02-2017 01:37 AM

built decks primarily years ago .based on my experience that looks real sturdy . nice to have such good working drawings .always makes the job go smoother . Will it get a railing ? decking material is also treated ? If you haven’t planned on using joist tape definitly put it on your beam .any place lumber is fastened together will hold moisture to long between them and deteriate faster .like if you put a fasia over the band/rim joist . face nailing deck boards? what kind of spacing for the boards .as i get older i am leaning to larger spacing . cleans easier .less likely to plug with stuff/leaves/dirt . actually have done a few at 3/8” and they look fine . Pretty much put joist tape on all my decks now .
GRK makes great screws but i buy a lot from http://www.screwsolutions.com/ . I keep an assortment of there 1/4” lag screws in my truck .
looks well planned .

View Madmark2's profile

Madmark2

461 posts in 975 days


#19 posted 09-02-2017 03:30 AM

Nice AutoCAD work. Where did you lean to draw to MIL-STD-100C?

M

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

117626 posts in 3964 days


#20 posted 09-02-2017 04:24 AM

I build 15-20 decks a year,I’m trying to figure out why you just don’t bolt your two boxes together and use 4×6 beams below them supported by 4×4 uprights? then along the pressure blocks on both sides, you should use 4×6 beams below them also supported by 4×4 uprights? You need to cut your spans down to approximately 4’ to minimise bounce. Your 4×4 attachments need to be connected to the slab with these throughout the deck not just in one area http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-ABA-4x4-ZMAX-Galvanized-Adjustable-Post-Base-ABA44Z/100374999 and conneect the top of the 4×4s to the 4×6s with these http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-BC-4x-ZMAX-Galvanized-Post-Cap-Base-BC4Z-R/206059722
With Pleasure treated wood you need to make sure you are using the ZMAX version of all the Joist hangers and anything metal connectors other than bolts your connecting to your PT, because the standard versions will be eaten away with the chemicals in the pt wood in a relatively short time.

View tomd's profile

tomd

2205 posts in 4157 days


#21 posted 09-02-2017 04:50 AM

I have to agree with Jim, eight feet between beams will make the deck bouncy.

-- Tom D

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#22 posted 09-02-2017 04:41 PM



Nice AutoCAD work. Where did you lean to draw to MIL-STD-100C?

M

- Madmark2


I learned AutocadĀ© while working at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, Ms. Now that I am retired, I use Autocad for all my projects; makes it easy to design and see problems before they happen.

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#23 posted 09-02-2017 04:42 PM



I build 15-20 decks a year,I m trying to figure out why you just don t bolt your two boxes together and use 4×6 beams below them supported by 4×4 uprights? then along the pressure blocks on both sides, you should use 4×6 beams below them also supported by 4×4 uprights? You need to cut your spans down to approximately 4 to minimise bounce. Your 4×4 attachments need to be connected to the slab with these throughout the deck not just in one area http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-ABA-4x4-ZMAX-Galvanized-Adjustable-Post-Base-ABA44Z/100374999 and conneect the top of the 4×4s to the 4×6s with these http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-BC-4x-ZMAX-Galvanized-Post-Cap-Base-BC4Z-R/206059722
With Pleasure treated wood you need to make sure you are using the ZMAX version of all the Joist hangers and anything metal connectors other than bolts your connecting to your PT, because the standard versions will be eaten away with the chemicals in the pt wood in a relatively short time.

- a1Jim


I already have all the materials.

View patcollins's profile

patcollins

1687 posts in 3252 days


#24 posted 09-02-2017 05:00 PM

Unless I am not seeing something here the 2×4 doesn’t do anything for you, the 2×8s are what will carry the load.

If you are relying on the 2×4 to support the beam because it is on top of the 4×4 posts I don’t think I would count on that too much because the fasteners/glue holding the 2×4 to the 2×8s would experience a lot of shear.

Does this beam run parallel with your deck boards? Am I seeing that this is just secondary support for your joists to get rid of some bounce?

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MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#25 posted 09-02-2017 05:26 PM



Unless I am not seeing something here the 2×4 doesn t do anything for you, the 2×8s are what will carry the load.

If you are relying on the 2×4 to support the beam because it is on top of the 4×4 posts I don t think I would count on that too much because the fasteners/glue holding the 2×4 to the 2×8s would experience a lot of shear.

Does this beam run parallel with your deck boards? Am I seeing that this is just secondary support for your joists to get rid of some bounce?

- patcollins


The 2×4 will be attached to the (2) 2×8’s with a construction adhesive and nails. The 2×4 is the same length as the 2×8’s. The (3) 4×4’s will slide up between the 2×8’s and hit the 2×4. 1/2” bolts will secure the 4×4’s to the 2×8’s. The beam will run parallel to the deck boards. True, the 2×8’s are carrying the load, but if I can integrate it all into a beam, it will be substantially stronger. I could also add another 2×4 at the bottom of the beam, forming a “box” beam and that would be stronger again. One must remember that what I’m doing is to prefab everything in order to minimize the amount of personal effort. At 82 (going on 83), I would not be able to build the deck in place at ground level. I’ll be doing this project solo, so the less I have to stoop, bend over or squat, the easier it will be for me. The deck boards will not be a problem, as I will be high enough to drive screws at a comfortable level.

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MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#26 posted 09-02-2017 06:18 PM

A1Jim, Thanks for the heads-up on the joist hangers. I already have them, but I will check if they are the “Z” type. If not, I will return them for the correct ones.

Josephf, Thanks for the joist tape tip; something I would not have thought of.

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

117626 posts in 3964 days


#27 posted 09-02-2017 06:18 PM

I already have all the materials.

- MrRon

How you build your deck is up to you Ron but exchanging materials should not be an issue where you bought it at if it’s a retail material supplier,so it’s basically if you want to exchange it or not. I’m sure the way you have it planned won’t fall down at least right away :) just kidding .Best of luck.


View patcollins's profile

patcollins

1687 posts in 3252 days


#28 posted 09-02-2017 10:37 PM


The 2×4 will be attached to the (2) 2×8 s with a construction adhesive and nails. The 2×4 is the same length as the 2×8 s. The (3) 4×4 s will slide up between the 2×8 s and hit the 2×4. 1/2” bolts will secure the 4×4 s to the 2×8 s. The beam will run parallel to the deck boards. True, the 2×8 s are carrying the load, but if I can integrate it all into a beam, it will be substantially stronger. I could also add another 2×4 at the bottom of the beam, forming a “box” beam and that would be stronger again. One must remember that what I m doing is to prefab everything in order to minimize the amount of personal effort. At 82 (going on 83), I would not be able to build the deck in place at ground level. I ll be doing this project solo, so the less I have to stoop, bend over or squat, the easier it will be for me. The deck boards will not be a problem, as I will be high enough to drive screws at a comfortable level.

- MrRon

So is this beam under the joists?

I don’t see how it is going to be easier to life a U channel built out of two 2×8s and a 2×4 than it would be to lift individual 2×8s.

I hope you are going to get someone help you with the heavy lifting.

I do a lot of things myself that I probably shouldn’t but Im almost half your age and a very big boy and I can see the say coming when I won’t be able to do some of it soon.

Good luck and be careful.

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MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#29 posted 09-03-2017 12:58 AM



How you build your deck is up to you Ron but exchanging materials should not be an issue where you bought it at if it s a retail material supplier,so it s basically if you want to exchange it or not. I m sure the way you have it planned won t fall down at least right away :) just kidding .Best of luck.

- a1Jim


If you look at Section C-C of my sketch, the deck boards are sitting on top of the beam and the top of the beam is flush with the 2×10”s which form the perimeter of the deck.

View a1Jim's profile

a1Jim

117626 posts in 3964 days


#30 posted 09-03-2017 01:38 AM

Ron perhaps the way I wrote my comment sounded sarcastic, but my intent was to try and convey who am I to tell you what to do. Sorry, but looking at your drawing I missed that, it didn’t quite register in my old gray-haired brain what seemed a bit to my sense unusual built beams where your beams. Of course, they are more than enough to eliminate bounce. if I’m reading your drawing correctly they seem to split the span on your joist.
Just wondering why your joist have different spacing? Are you using wood for your deck surface or a composite?

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MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#31 posted 09-03-2017 04:03 PM


Just wondering why your joist have different spacing? Are you using wood for your deck surface or a composite?

- a1Jim

I’m using 2×6 boards. The joist spacing is 20-1/2” typical except for the first one. Remember this is a prefab. I measured the distance between the end 2×10’s (184-1/2”) and divided that by 9 (spaces). I’m happy guys like you take the time to scrutinize my design and point out where I can improve. My experience is with shipbuilding so I try to transfer that experience to wood structures.

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a1Jim

117626 posts in 3964 days


#32 posted 09-03-2017 04:26 PM

Ron
I would recommend some wood suitable for out door use like cedar, redwood even Ipe for your deck surface if your budget will allow. Fir is not a long lasting outdoor wood even if you stain the both sides in time it will rot where woods like cedar and redwood have tannic acid that resists rot and bug infestations. Typically deck joist is 24” on center or 16” on center for composite decking they joist don’t have to come out to have even numbers as long as they are they are not over the maximum space for material used. your spacing will work but it will be more time consuming than just using a standard measurement all the way across.

BTW I would not have a clue where to start in ship building:)

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MrRon

5481 posts in 3630 days


#33 posted 09-03-2017 10:22 PM



Ron
I would recommend some wood suitable for out door use like cedar, redwood even Ipe for your deck surface if your budget will allow. Fir is not a long lasting outdoor wood even if you stain the both sides in time it will rot where woods like cedar and redwood have tannic acid that resists rot and bug infestations. Typically deck joist is 24” on center or 16” on center for composite decking they joist don t have to come out to have even numbers as long as they are they are not over the maximum space for material used. your spacing will work but it will be more time consuming than just using a standard measurement all the way across.

BTW I would not have a clue where to start in ship building:)

- a1Jim

At my advanced age (83), SYP will probably outlast me. I’ll let my heirs deal with the deck. I were going to build a super deck that would last a long, long time and I were a billionaire, I would make the framework from stainless steel or aluminum and IPE for the surface.

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a1Jim

117626 posts in 3964 days


#34 posted 09-03-2017 10:24 PM

Ha Ha
I see your point, Ron

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