LumberJocks

All Replies on Curing Runout on My Craftsman Alien

  • Advertise with us
View builtinbkyn's profile

Curing Runout on My Craftsman Alien

by builtinbkyn
posted 08-03-2017 03:58 PM


27 replies so far

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

11394 posts in 1678 days


#1 posted 08-03-2017 04:07 PM

How are you indicating the runout Bill? Dial indicator? I would start by measuring runout on the quill. If the quill is true, you can get the rest true. If the quill is not running true, you have to fix that. How to fix it will depend on what’s causing it.

My first step would be to measure runout on the quill, on the tapered shaft above the Jacobs chuck and on a round bar or drill rod that you KNOW is round that’s chucked up in the Jacobs. Record the amount of runout at all 3 locations and make a mark with a sharpie where the high spot is in each case. The marks should all line up but if not, better to know that now than later. Before indicating though, I’d clean the tapered shaft, the mating surface in the quill and the chuck.

Let us know what you get and we can go from there. That’s a damn sexy machine by the way!

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#2 posted 08-03-2017 04:11 PM

Well I didn’t measure it yet, but I can see it with my eye that it’s not spinning true. There’s a distinct wobble. I’ll have to set up a jig to measure it with a dial indicator.

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

11394 posts in 1678 days


#3 posted 08-03-2017 04:56 PM

Can you see wobble in the quill or just in the chuck? Just because you can’t see wobble in the quill doesn’t mean it’s not there, it’ll be amplified at the chuck. But if there’s obvious runout in the quill, that’s where to start.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4238 posts in 2528 days


#4 posted 08-03-2017 05:40 PM

You need to figure out if it is the chuck or something else. You could also find the manual and replace any bearings. If you have quill slop, there is not much you can do.

I had a Jet drill press with quill slop and no way to adjust. I sold it to get a better drill press

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7502 posts in 2738 days


#5 posted 08-03-2017 06:36 PM

Nice press… the “100” model if I’m not mistaken. Given it’s age and unknown history (CL purchase), I’d go ahead and pull the spindle/quill. That would let you give them a good once over to verify they are not bent or damaged, and let you go ahead and put in some fresh bearings. IIRC, it has two 6202-5/8, and two 6205 bearings – but you can verify once you open it up. If you don’t already, get the manual/parts list that will help figuring out what goes where.

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

11394 posts in 1678 days


#6 posted 08-03-2017 06:46 PM

I’d agree that it’s a good idea to pull it apart and swap the bearings out. Bearings are cheap and new ones won’t make anything worse.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#7 posted 08-03-2017 06:48 PM

Yeah I’m going to start with the bearings first. I think I can replace those without pulling the chuck – which I’m not exactly sure how to do :) It’s not a Morse taper. I believe it’s force fit onto the spindle and need wedges to remove it?

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

11394 posts in 1678 days


#8 posted 08-03-2017 06:56 PM

Probably. That’s how Morse taper works. There should be a slot in the spindle shaft where you put a knock-out wedge to release the taper lock. Like on your lathe but you’re using a wedge from the side instead of a bar from the back.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7502 posts in 2738 days


#9 posted 08-03-2017 06:56 PM

The chuck should be a Jacobs taper, but it also has a threaded collar… I believe all you need to do is unscrew the threaded collar and then tap the chuck off the taper. I’m not 100% familiar with that particular model (mine is an older Atlas made model from 1937), but on some, the threaded collar can also be used to push the chuck off the taper. On mine, you just use a wedge to push it off (or screwdrivers, or a ball joint pickle fork, or whatever else you happen to have available at the time :)

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#10 posted 08-03-2017 07:12 PM


The chuck should be a Jacobs taper, but it also has a threaded collar… I believe all you need to do is unscrew the threaded collar and then tap the chuck off the taper. I m not 100% familiar with that particular model (mine is an older Atlas made model from 1937), but on some, the threaded collar can also be used to push the chuck off the taper. On mine, you just use a wedge to push it off (or screwdrivers, or a ball joint pickle fork, or whatever else you happen to have available at the time :)

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix


Ah OK. Thinking it may be threaded (I have the original manual with and exploded diagram, but it doesn’t show one way or the other) I chucked up a large allen key. Then I used a spanner on the key and a large set of channel locks on the collar and tried to turn the chuck. The collar spun. So that’s how I will remove the chuck – use two pieces of tool steel pinched between the collar and the chuck, to force the chuck off of the spindle. I thought that’s how it might work. Thanks for confirming that Brad. After doing that, I’ll get the dial indicator set up to check the runout on the spindle.

Edit: There must be a special tool for the collar. It has three holes in it where some kind of wrench must fit.

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View JHub's profile

JHub

5 posts in 838 days


#11 posted 08-03-2017 07:21 PM

If it’s anything like my floor model from the same vintage it’s simply pressed/held on the taper with the threaded collar. The method that Brad described, using the collar to force off the chuck, is the same method that I used to pull mine off more times than I could count to try to get mine trued up.

When you go to replace the bearings be sure that you get the thin diameter inner instead of the standard. The outside diameter may be correct but there are a couple different inside tolerances for that size bearing… if you look for them locally at a parts store I think you will be frustrated by your search as I was.

They’re awesome old presses, wish I would’ve kept mine but I found it in my way more often than I was using it in my little garage.

-Joe

-- Joe, Houston Lake, MO

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7502 posts in 2738 days


#12 posted 08-03-2017 07:33 PM

If it’s anything like my floor model from the same vintage [...]

AFAIK, the head and tables are identical between the bench and floor models… only difference is the length of the column and I believe the floor model had a larger base.

As for the pin spanner needed to get the collar off.. would be nice to have one, but not 100% required. Here is a thread over at the OWWM site that you might get some useful information from:

Craftsman 100 DP Restore

They talk about removing the chuck on the second page of that thread.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: And Joe is correct about the smaller bearings having a non-standard inner race size.. They should be standard 6202’s but with an inner race (bore) size of 5/8” instead of the usual 15mm metric size. Just make sure whoever you get the bearings from is aware of that and you should be fine. Of course, measuring to verify first before purchase is always recommended :)

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#13 posted 08-03-2017 07:37 PM

Thanks Joe. I think that method will work. I guess that’s exactly what the collar is for. Don’t see any other function it could serve.

I’ll pull the bearings first to see what they look like and if they’re marked to identify them. I found a couple of good sources for bearings online, when I was having issues with my lathe.

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#14 posted 08-03-2017 08:56 PM



If it’s anything like my floor model from the same vintage [...]

AFAIK, the head and tables are identical between the bench and floor models… only difference is the length of the column and I believe the floor model had a larger base.

As for the pin spanner needed to get the collar off.. would be nice to have one, but not 100% required. Here is a thread over at the OWWM site that you might get some useful information from:

Craftsman 100 DP Restore

They talk about removing the chuck on the second page of that thread.

Cheers,
Brad

PS: And Joe is correct about the smaller bearings having a non-standard inner race size.. They should be standard 6202 s but with an inner race (bore) size of 5/8” instead of the usual 15mm metric size. Just make sure whoever you get the bearings from is aware of that and you should be fine. Of course, measuring to verify first before purchase is always recommended :)

- MrUnix

Thanks for that link and the info on the bearings. When I get back to the shop, I’ll measure the diameter of the collar and the holes. Amazon has an adjustable spanner for 12 bucks. That would be a much better tool to do this than the channel locks, which will mar the collar. Just need to confirm those measurements.

I’m wondering if the chuck could be seated better. If it’s on a little skewed, it would produce some runout. Is it possible for it to not be on perfectly aligned with the spindle?

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#15 posted 08-04-2017 06:32 PM

So after pulling the chuck, this is the runout I get on the spindle.

Now what to do about it. Leave well enough alone or try to fix it? .0025 seems a bit much to accept? I’m sure it’s exacerbated with the chuck on and at the end of a long bit and why I’m able to see some wobble.

Now how to I find what’s causing the runout? Could it be the taper on the end of the spindle? I could swear I can see an inconsistency in the taper (one side pitched differently than the other). Should I just simply change the bearings first and then take another measurement?

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View splintergroup's profile

splintergroup

3002 posts in 1761 days


#16 posted 08-04-2017 07:13 PM

Run out is not too bad for that drill press. Are the taper surfaces free from dings and burrs that would preclude a good fit?

Often times you can re-orient the chuck (remove it, rotate it 180 degrees, then reinstall it) to eliminate or reduce excessive runout.

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#17 posted 08-04-2017 07:41 PM


Run out is not too bad for that drill press. Are the taper surfaces free from dings and burrs that would preclude a good fit?

Often times you can re-orient the chuck (remove it, rotate it 180 degrees, then reinstall it) to eliminate or reduce excessive runout.

- splintergroup

Yes the taper is clean and free of any surface scars, etc. I even checked the mating surface inside the chuck. That too is clean. When considering the bearings, they seems tight with no discernible slop. It really does appear to be the milling of the taper that’s not true to being concentric.

I have to say, I bought the press from the son of the original owner, from a CL listing. He said his father had it from new. It was in his basement until he passed. No one else ever used it. The press was pretty clean other than the dust that settled on it over the years. The original paint is perfect and there was very little oxidation on the cast pieces. No rust what so ever on the steel and the chrome on the handles and center wheel are perfect. I was really happy when I saw it and for (trying to remember what I paid) I think $140, I considered it a steal. The motor runs well and the windings are very clean. My only gripe other than this issue is the non-tilting table. I think the later models have a tilting table.

Unfortunately I removed the chuck to take the reading, prior to you posting so I don’t know the orientation the chuck was originally in :( I also should have taken a reading with a piece of bar I know to be true. Then I should have taken it as I did. Ah mistakes lol

Is it possible or even practical to have the taper milled true? I guess I may just have to live with it’s idiosyncrasies, if not :)

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7502 posts in 2738 days


#18 posted 08-04-2017 08:03 PM

Two to three thou is not all that bad, particularly on an older machine. Have you tried measuring the bearing slop (mount the indicator then push/pull on the spindle to see what kind of movement you get)?

Here is an interesting thread over at the Practical Machinist site about run-out on an older C-man press that may be the same one you have (they only state it’s a 30+ year old 15-1/2” one – which yours is):

Thread: Drill Press Runout Question

Cheers,
Brad

PS: I’m surprised that the table doesn’t tilt – previous models (non King-Sealy) and later models did, as well as add the raise/lower crank. But for what it’s worth, and depending on what you use it for, I can’t remember ever tilting the table on any of my presses… it’s just something that I’ve never needed to do, and they remain at 90 degrees their whole life :)

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#19 posted 08-04-2017 08:21 PM



Two to three thou is not all that bad, particularly on an older machine. Have you tried measuring the bearing slop (mount the indicator then push/pull on the spindle to see what kind of movement you get)?

Here is an interesting thread over at the Practical Machinist site about run-out on an older C-man press that may be the same one you have (they only state it s a 30+ year old 15-1/2” one – which yours is):

Thread: Drill Press Runout Question

Cheers,
Brad

PS: I m surprised that the table doesn t tilt – previous models (non King-Sealy) and later models did, as well as add the raise/lower crank. But for what it s worth, and depending on what you use it for, I can t remember ever tilting the table on any of my presses… it s just something that I ve never needed to do, and they remain at 90 degrees their whole life :)

- MrUnix

Thanks for the link Brad. I skimmed thru it and there’s some good info, but going to read it again to see what advice was offered. Yeah no tilt and no crank to raise/lower the table. Vintagemachinery.org dates it to “around 1960”. So it’s as old as I am and probably has less runout than I have, especially when measured in the morning lol

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#20 posted 08-04-2017 08:23 PM

Oh wanted to mention, there’s no movement in the spindle what so ever.

Here’s the link to vintagemachinery.org.

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View MrUnix's profile

MrUnix

7502 posts in 2738 days


#21 posted 08-04-2017 08:36 PM

Here s the link to vintagemachinery.org.
- builtinbkyn

LOL – you don’t have to point me to the VM site – it’s one of my daily go to places :)

Looks like yours is even less represented than mine, with just a single entry. My 1937 C-man press has two entries (101.03661 – found here and here).

Cheers,
Brad

-- Brad in FL - In Dog I trust... everything else is questionable

View HokieKen's profile

HokieKen

11394 posts in 1678 days


#22 posted 08-04-2017 08:43 PM

I’d let it ride at .0025 runout Bill. You’d probably be hard pressed to find a sub-$1k drill press manufactured today with less runout than that.

-- Kenny, SW VA, Go Hokies!!!

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#23 posted 08-04-2017 09:16 PM


Here s the link to vintagemachinery.org.
- builtinbkyn

LOL – you don t have to point me to the VM site – it s one of my daily go to places :)

Looks like yours is even less represented than mine, with just a single entry. My 1937 C-man press has two entries (101.03661 – found here and here).

Cheers,
Brad

- MrUnix

I should have guessed that knowing your posting history ;)


I d let it ride at .0025 runout Bill. You d probably be hard pressed to find a sub-$1k drill press manufactured today with less runout than that.

- HokieKen

Yeah I cleaned the chuck, which I didn’t do originally. Gave it a good soaking with WD40 followed by a bath in acetone. Removed a lot of pitch, mostly from the chuck key knurls, but also some from the jaws. I also did what maybe some of you would have advised against – I used my lapping block and some rouge on the spindle taper. The runout is now .002. Not sure if it was the cleaning or the lapping, but it’s better :)

This chuck is actually nice in how it’s removed and installed via the thrust collar. No banging required. Just make sure it’s snugged up well when threading it back on.

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#24 posted 08-04-2017 09:22 PM

Oh I also know I have a bad chuck. I bought a cheap (Chinese) fixed chuck for my lathe. It just happens to have the same Jacobs taper – JT33. I fitted that to the drill press and the measured runout using a true bar and was .012+ :( Measuring the runout with the bar in the original chuck is still .002. I’ve been wondering why drilling on the lathe seemed off. Now I know why.

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View JHub's profile

JHub

5 posts in 838 days


#25 posted 08-04-2017 09:30 PM

Good to hear it’s not as bad as once thought.

I can’t tell you how many nights I spent on mine trying to get the runout that was visible to the eye cured. Finally found the chucks happy place on the taper and called it good.

Seeing yours makes me want to find another one… even though I know it’ll just be in my way more times than not.

-- Joe, Houston Lake, MO

View builtinbkyn's profile

builtinbkyn

2965 posts in 1480 days


#26 posted 08-04-2017 09:43 PM



Good to hear it s not as bad as once thought.

I can t tell you how many nights I spent on mine trying to get the runout that was visible to the eye cured. Finally found the chucks happy place on the taper and called it good.

Seeing yours makes me want to find another one… even though I know it ll just be in my way more times than not.

- JHub

Thanks J. I actually am very happy with it. It’s solid and for the price I paid, it’s really solid lol I just figured I’d do what I could if there was indeed a fix. I can actually see the slight milling error on the taper at the shoulder. I can see it and feel it, though it’s obviously pretty minute. I guess I’ll call it good enough though.

-- Bill, Yo!......in Brooklyn & Steel City :)

View steliart's profile

steliart

2895 posts in 3227 days


#27 posted 08-10-2017 11:44 AM

hahaha Bill it looks that you are doing a gr8 fix on that drill… put it in good work buddy !!!!

-- Stelios L.A. Stavrinides: - I am not so rich to buy cheap tools, but... necessity is the mother of inventions !!!

Have your say...

You must be signed in to reply.

DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user.

Latest Projects | Latest Blog Entries | Latest Forum Topics

HomeRefurbers.com