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Spend money on a dovetail jig or learn to do them by hand?

by JohnnyBoy1981
posted 07-28-2017 11:58 PM


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187 replies

187 replies so far

View KelleyCrafts's profile

KelleyCrafts

3620 posts in 1041 days


#1 posted 07-29-2017 12:02 AM

I would think if they are “keepsake” for your family or close friends they might mean more to do it by hand?

I think it’s worth learning and they are fun to do. That’s just me though. I’m a hybrid woodworker though and enjoy hand tool use more than power tool use but don’t have time for al hand tools.

Each to their own though, I don’t judge either way.

-- Dave - http://kelleycrafts.com/ - pen blanks - knife scales - turning tools

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 3949 days


#2 posted 07-29-2017 12:10 AM

If you have a band saw you can use that.
It’s the easiest way for a beginner to make
dovetails that look hand cut, imo. A couple
of simple jigs and a 1/8” blade for cutting
out the waste are all that are required.

Cutting them by hand is less difficult than
you might think, but it does require practice
and some skill with sharpening chisels to
make clean-looking joints.

View Holbs's profile

Holbs

2176 posts in 2331 days


#3 posted 07-29-2017 12:13 AM

I have not yet bought any dovetail jig for my router, nor the magnetic saw blade alignment tool that helps with cutting dovetails. I’ve done about 50 by hand and although not perfect for any project, I could see the progression of getting better. Why no jig? Personal preference. For I know when the time comes (soon) to make hand tool cabinet or some project with class, I want blood sweat & tears to go into the project including cursing & dignity so will go hand tools for dovetails.

-- The Carpenter Bee is derived from the Ancient Greek word wood-cutter "xylokopos/ξυλοκὀπος"

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8595 posts in 2878 days


#4 posted 07-29-2017 12:20 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgG_SufjiJw

Frank Klaus starts around the 19 minute mark and gives an excellent demonstration on making

dovetails by hand.

Enjoy the journey!

View Rich's profile

Rich

4156 posts in 891 days


#5 posted 07-29-2017 12:49 AM

+1 on anything you can learn from Frank Klausz.

I think you definitely should learn to cut them by hand. It’s a fundamental skill that every woodworker should have, and will teach you a great deal about using marking and cutting tools.

Just as I use power tools for other things in my shop, I use a jig for everyday cutting of dovetails. I bought a Leigh D4 about 15 or 20 years ago and it’s a great jig. As far as the less expensive fixed jigs go, unless you’re doing drawer boxes that are at even height increments, they aren’t very useful, since you can’t adjust the fingers for proper pin and tail alignment, nor can you do any sort of decorative spacing patterns.

So, if the question is to learn to do them by hand or buy an inexpensive fixed jig, I say do it by hand for sure.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View bondogaposis's profile

bondogaposis

5265 posts in 2653 days


#6 posted 07-29-2017 01:24 AM

Setting up a jig for a small amount of dovetails will take longer than cutting them by hand. A dovetail jig is only efficient if you have a large quantity to do. Learn to cut them by hand, it is satisfying and rewarding.

-- Bondo Gaposis

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10844 posts in 1788 days


#7 posted 07-29-2017 01:39 AM

Ditto.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View onoitsmatt's profile

onoitsmatt

426 posts in 1478 days


#8 posted 07-29-2017 01:57 AM

Someone on a similar thread here on LJs suggested taking 2 boards. Cut tails in one, pins in the other. Fit the joint. Admire your mediocrity.

Then the next day, cut those off about an inch below the joint. Cut new pins and tails. Repeat each day for a week to ten days. Note how much better your last dovetails are than your first.

Be sure to use hardwoods and sharp chisels. Soft woods will ruin your desire to hard cut dovetails. Dull chisels might too.

-- Matt - Phoenix, AZ

View JohnnyBoy1981's profile

JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#9 posted 07-29-2017 01:58 AM

Thanks for all the responses. Something inside me felt like getting a jig wasn’t the way for me to go to be satisfied with the results, even if they aren’t magazine-cover perfect looking. I’ll need to scrounge up some scrap and get to practicing.

Curious: are dovetail and box joints viable on plywood? I have a bunch of 3/4” plywood scrap laying about that might make for good practice pieces.

Thanks!

View Rich's profile

Rich

4156 posts in 891 days


#10 posted 07-29-2017 02:10 AM



Curious: are dovetail and box joints viable on plywood? I have a bunch of 3/4” plywood scrap laying about that might make for good practice pieces.

Thanks!

- JohnnyBoy1981

I do dovetails in plywood on a jig for shop furniture all the time. It wouldn’t be easy by hand though because of the chip-out. Same thing with box joints. Like Matt said, use some hardwood. Even something inexpensive like poplar or alder would work.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5131 posts in 2611 days


#11 posted 07-29-2017 02:10 AM

Personal preference says plywood dovetails look like do do to me. I don’t like seeing the layers.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10844 posts in 1788 days


#12 posted 07-29-2017 02:15 AM

Box joints definitely viable. William Ng has a video about making a simple jig for box joints.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View Desert_Woodworker's profile

Desert_Woodworker

1727 posts in 1516 days


#13 posted 07-29-2017 02:16 AM

Read the post above by Mat “Be sure to use hardwoods and sharp chisels. Soft woods will ruin your desire to hard cut dovetails. Dull chisels might too.”
I say- I have cut them by “hand” saw (traditional), Leigh dovetail jig and the CNC. A fine hand cut dovetail, will shine on your craftsmanship or it will look like “dog do-do”.

-- Desert_Woodworker

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5131 posts in 2611 days


#14 posted 07-29-2017 02:16 AM



Setting up a jig for a small amount of dovetails will take longer than cutting them by hand. A dovetail jig is only efficient if you have a large quantity to do. Learn to cut them by hand, it is satisfying and rewarding.

- bondogaposis

I agree with you 110%......but time to a lot of hobbyist means nothing.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 3949 days


#15 posted 07-29-2017 02:20 AM

I cut plenty of practice dovetails in pine
while I was learning. They got to be pretty
clean. One has to be extra careful when
chiseling the end grain in pine though
so it’s not really a time saver.

I still have some of those pine shop boxes
I made, plywood bottoms nailed on. Hardwood
is probably better for practicing if you have
it on hand. Cutting plywood with hand
saws will dull them due to the hard glue in it.

View Desert_Woodworker's profile

Desert_Woodworker

1727 posts in 1516 days


#16 posted 07-29-2017 02:33 AM

Fridge as a catcher to a pitcher, let me help you, give this guy a link——
https://wnwoodworkingschool.com/make-an-accurate-box-joint-jig-simple-fast/

-- Desert_Woodworker

View Carey  Mitchell's profile

Carey Mitchell

123 posts in 2261 days


#17 posted 07-29-2017 02:52 AM

At one point I had 3 jigs, the Porter Cable, a Craftsman16” and a very old Leigh. Got rid of the latter 2. I tried the recommended practice of cutting by hand for a month. Now I do all by hand and love the result. My greatest challenges were the hanging tool cabinet using 7/8” maple with case and doors dovetailed; and half-blind ones on drawers. Careful layout and very sharp chisels. I finally sprang for a set of really good chisels and it made a lot of difference.

Give it a shot! There is nothing like seeing them go together perfectly.

View JohnnyBoy1981's profile

JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#18 posted 07-29-2017 03:09 AM



Someone on a similar thread here on LJs suggested taking 2 boards. Cut tails in one, pins in the other. Fit the joint. Admire your mediocrity.

Then the next day, cut those off about an inch below the joint. Cut new pins and tails. Repeat each day for a week to ten days. Note how much better your last dovetails are than your first.

Be sure to use hardwoods and sharp chisels. Soft woods will ruin your desire to hard cut dovetails. Dull chisels might too.

- onoitsmatt

I think you must have posted this the moment I posted my question about using plywood! On hand, I’ve got a few planks of red oak, and several more of yellow poplar. I’ll make some practice dovetails tomorrow and further tune up my plywood box joint jig I made last week for my router table.

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10844 posts in 1788 days


#19 posted 07-29-2017 05:25 AM

DW, you’re a sweetheart. Temperamental like a woman at times. But still a sweetheart.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View bonesbr549's profile

bonesbr549

1579 posts in 3369 days


#20 posted 07-29-2017 12:20 PM

Well here’s my take. I have the Leigh jig, and if you have a dresser or a lot to do, they speed production. If you only have a few hand cut is actually faster.

If you are starting and want to do it well quick. I’d suggest a dozuki, and David Baron’s guide. Works great and you will be cutting like a pro. Liegh Valley has them now. I had to order from his website and waite for it to come across the pond.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/david-barron-magnetic-dovetail-saw-guide.aspx

Youtube his guide and watch.

-- Sooner or later Liberals run out of other people's money.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

3843 posts in 2290 days


#21 posted 07-29-2017 12:50 PM

I use a Leigh jig and set up is quick. I have done ones by hand but unless you do them frequently and practice they are tough to do.

But everyone can do it the way that makes them happy.

View Rich's profile

Rich

4156 posts in 891 days


#22 posted 07-29-2017 01:38 PM



I use a Leigh jig and set up is quick. I have done ones by hand but unless you do them frequently and practice they are tough to do.

But everyone can do it the way that makes them happy.

- Redoak49

Well said. About 99% of the dovetails I do are half-blind. The Leigh jig requires only one bit depth setting for both pins and tails, so I have a setup board for each bit that I can simply bottom out the bit on and be within one test board of getting it perfect.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

View msinc's profile

msinc

567 posts in 805 days


#23 posted 07-29-2017 09:33 PM

I asked this same question when I first got on this forum and got pretty much the same bunch of answers…all of them good advice. Here is my take on dovetails from a beginners point of view: unless you have like a dozen or so boxes all the same size to do then it’s probably best to just do them by hand. Jigs take some time to set up and again, unless you are doing several boxes all with the same set up the jig doesn’t really do much for you. Once you have done a few you can be half way done with one side in the time it takes to set up a jig.
I would definitely suggest you buy the best dovetail saw and have very sharp chisels just to help make things easy. The number one thing is to take your time.

View JohnnyBoy1981's profile

JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#24 posted 07-29-2017 10:18 PM



I asked this same question when I first got on this forum and got pretty much the same bunch of answers…all of them good advice. Here is my take on dovetails from a beginners point of view: unless you have like a dozen or so boxes all the same size to do then it s probably best to just do them by hand. Jigs take some time to set up and again, unless you are doing several boxes all with the same set up the jig doesn t really do much for you. Once you have done a few you can be half way done with one side in the time it takes to set up a jig.
I would definitely suggest you buy the best dovetail saw and have very sharp chisels just to help make things easy. The number one thing is to take your time.

- msinc

Thanks! I’ve been honing my chisels. I have an inexpensive push cut dovetail saw and a pull cut Dozuki saw. I find the latter, though cheap as well, cuts much faster. I tried practicing today on some yellow poplar, but I kept splitting the wood when chiseling out the waste (hence the need to hone my chisels).

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5131 posts in 2611 days


#25 posted 07-29-2017 10:36 PM

Lee Valley tools now has a Japanese Rip-Tooth Dozuki for dovetails. If I read correctly this is relatively new. I the past they have all been crosscut design and they still worked very well. they come with a hefty price tag of 99.00 and when there too dull to be useful you buy an new one.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Monte Pittman's profile

Monte Pittman

30263 posts in 2640 days


#26 posted 07-29-2017 11:31 PM

I am all about the jig. But time is not a convenience I have.

-- Nature created it, I just assemble it.

View Rich's profile

Rich

4156 posts in 891 days


#27 posted 07-30-2017 12:11 AM

The Gyokucho 372 is a reasonably priced saw, especially considering its quality. It’s even recommended by David Barron, who has his own line of magnetic dovetail saw guides. I have the same saw and recommend it as well, although my endorsement doesn’t carry the same weight as his. :)

His videos on youtube are very informative too.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

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MT_Stringer

3183 posts in 3533 days


#28 posted 07-30-2017 12:18 AM

I bought the Porter Cable jig to cut dovetails in our kitchen cabinet drawers. At this stage of the game, I don’t have the time to hand cut them, and honestly, I didn’t want any part of it. But, that is just me.

Now, about that jig. I watched videos and read the instructions over and over. It can be mind boggling. But I made practice cuts again and again until I got it right. The set up is very important. It doesn’t take much of a flub to get the joints off so the sides and ends of a drawer don’t line up. However, I did get better.

And then it dawned on me…I am making drawers for my kitchen. Why do I need to make the dovetails for the rear? No one will ever see back there, and it would cut down on production time. OK. And that is what I did. The drawers were constructed out of 5/8 hard maple that I glued up and planed down. My sweetie loves her kitchen, and the breakfast buffet we built to gain experience and practice before tackling the kitchen.

Note: I forgot to mention that I cut half blind dovetails and not through dovetails. Set up was easier and I only needed to use one router and not change bits.

Good luck with the dovetails.
Mike

-- Handcrafted by Mike Henderson - Channelview, Texas

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JayT

6109 posts in 2513 days


#29 posted 07-30-2017 12:26 AM

I have the David Barron magnetic guide that RichTaylor mentioned and love it. Really shortens the learning curve when hand cutting dovetails and helps you get good results quickly. I did a review of the guide here

-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5131 posts in 2611 days


#30 posted 07-30-2017 12:30 AM


The Gyokucho 372 is a reasonably priced saw, especially considering its quality. It s even recommended by David Barron, who has his own line of magnetic dovetail saw guides. I have the same saw and recommend it as well, although my endorsement doesn t carry the same weight as his. :)

His videos on youtube are very informative too.

- RichTaylor


Yep, I watched his video just a couple night’s ago. I been using the Gyokucho-s 405 for a long time. Not for dovetails but general shop use. I can buy them locally for 42.00 and not mess with ordering and paying shipping. I would agree they are good saws.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Desert_Woodworker's profile

Desert_Woodworker

1727 posts in 1516 days


#31 posted 07-30-2017 01:58 AM

Just sayin’ Why do we need dovetail drawers? Days of yesterday, drawers didn’t have “mechanical” drawer slides to prevent structural failure of the drawer. Observe the previous photos above- I see these dovetails jointed drawers, riding on mechanical drawer slides. No brainer as to why the drawer box will not fail. Look at the attached image- no mechanical fasteners and in this case it would be beneficial to dovetail a drawer.

-- Desert_Woodworker

View JohnnyBoy1981's profile

JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#32 posted 07-30-2017 02:21 AM

I made a couple of attempts at dovetail joints on some scrap yellow poplar and some red oak. I watched the aforementioned Frank Klausz video and here are my findings:

1. My Buck Bros. chisels that I thought were sharp were simply laughed at by the red oak. I was pretty happy with how sharp I had honed those things, but the oak was unimpressed.

2. Possibly due to the dull chisels, I would often create splits when hammering near a pin edge. The split usually extended down past the marker scratch I made at the start of the process, following the wood fiber direction.

3. I found that, in the hardwood at least, it was easier to do the pin board by hand, and do the tail section on my little bandsaw. The bandsaw helped me keep better control of the cuts, and Klausz mentioned in his video the trails require more precision than the pins. I feel like I’m cheating using the bandsaw for some reason. Like I need to do all work either entirely unplugged or entirely with a router and jig.

4. I need more practice.

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Desert_Woodworker

1727 posts in 1516 days


#33 posted 07-30-2017 02:34 AM

Have you considered posting some pics of your progress?

-- Desert_Woodworker

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5131 posts in 2611 days


#34 posted 07-30-2017 02:37 AM


Just sayin’ Why do we need dovetail drawers? Days of yesterday, drawers didn’t have “mechanical” drawer slides to prevent structural failure of the drawer. Observe the previous photos above- I see these dovetails jointed drawers, riding on mechanical drawer slides. No brainer as to why the drawer box will not fail. Look at the attached image- no mechanical fasteners and in this case it would be beneficial to dovetail a drawer.

- Desert_Woodworker


We don’t need them but many people what them. For some reason, is seems to fascinate non woodworkers. They think its some kind of magical joint made by a magical woodworker. Don’t as me why.

Looks wise I prefer the look of box joints much more that most dovetails. The only dovetails that I really are the one that pins come down to almost nothing at the point.

All my shop drawers are box joints.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#35 posted 07-30-2017 02:41 AM



Have you considered posting some pics of your progress?

- Desert_Woodworker

Maybe at some point. I just started practicing them today so I don’t have much to share.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5131 posts in 2611 days


#36 posted 07-30-2017 02:43 AM

Have you considered posting some pics of your progress?

- Desert_Woodworker

Maybe at some point. I just started practicing them today so I don t have much to share.

- JohnnyBoy1981


The sooner you start sharing the more progress well see. Or take photos of all work and post several at a time every now and then.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Desert_Woodworker's profile

Desert_Woodworker

1727 posts in 1516 days


#37 posted 07-30-2017 03:17 AM

John there are a lot of experienced people here that will work with you- if you give us some visual progress. Otherwise, this will turn from helping John to a forum on dovetails.

-- Desert_Woodworker

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JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#38 posted 07-30-2017 03:29 AM

Alright, then. I’ll post some pics tomorrow.

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Rich

4156 posts in 891 days


#39 posted 07-30-2017 04:20 AM

OK. Dovetails. There are a lot of options, like drawer lock joints, that render them pretty much obsolete in today’s world of adhesives.

But, it’s a sign of craftsmanship. I don’t care if you cut them by hand, or with a jig, they are beautiful, and the first thing I look at when I pull out a drawer.

-- Half of what we read or hear about finishing is right. We just don’t know which half! — Bob Flexner

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Aj2

2063 posts in 2100 days


#40 posted 07-30-2017 04:54 AM

I think it’s good for a new woodworker to learn how to cut Dts by hand.They can be very challageing keep you on your game.But if your not interested in mastering hand tools then a Router and jig is probably the way to go.
It not only take patience but good eyes and lots of free time without pressure.
I enjoy the challenge.

-- Aj

View TheFridge's profile

TheFridge

10844 posts in 1788 days


#41 posted 07-30-2017 06:55 AM

Red oak sucks to dovetail by hand as far as I’m concerned. I hate red oak. Sorry :/

Coping or fret saw on the tails helps. Don’t take more than 1/16 and definitely less when you get close to baseline. Don’t wanna compress fibers. On half bind pins, don’t try to take out too much at one time.

-- Shooting down the walls of heartache. Bang bang. I am. The warrior.

View johnstoneb's profile

johnstoneb

3089 posts in 2474 days


#42 posted 07-30-2017 11:41 AM

Red oak is not easy to dovetail. It splits easily. As Fridge says when getting close to the line slow down and don’t take off a lot. The fret or coping saw take out a lot of the waste quickly.
I did my first dovetails in soft wood and it is easier to work with than red oak. Maple makes for nice dovetails when learning.

-- Bruce, Boise, ID

View Logan Windram's profile

Logan Windram

347 posts in 2764 days


#43 posted 07-30-2017 01:29 PM

Good responses here. A bit of an alternative option, buy the jig, cut your boxes and sell it for a slight discount on Craigslist… it’s like renting the jig from Home Depot, you’re out some some money but you get the work done faster/ easier but you are not stuck with the full priced jig long-term.

View JohnnyBoy1981's profile

JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#44 posted 07-30-2017 05:43 PM

Here’s some pics of my DT attempt on Red Oak yesterday:

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JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#45 posted 07-30-2017 05:47 PM

And here’s some on yellow poplar that I did today. The spacing isn’t symmetrical; I was focusing on the technique.

*I love how some pics are fine and others are upside down even though I did nothing differently! I’m just going to delete the upside down pics.

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AlaskaGuy

5131 posts in 2611 days


#46 posted 07-30-2017 05:58 PM

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View helluvawreck's profile

helluvawreck

32086 posts in 3168 days


#47 posted 07-30-2017 06:14 PM

If you have a good attitude and determination it is not that difficult to cut dovetails by hand. You need to get a few tools of reasonable quality and a book or good magazine or internet article about cutting dovetails. The article will have a list of required tools as well as instructions and technique. A good article will also explain a little about the necessity of having reasonable quality tools and knowing the care and how to maintain and sharpen the tools. If you will spend a couple or three days on how to do it and make a few practice corners you will pick it up quicker than you think. This is better than buying a jig and using a router. I can do it both ways but unless you are going to make a lot of dovetails I would stick to cutting them by hand. The tools that you will be using are used on lots of standard woodworking jobs anyways so you need these tools for other things. After you learn then practice every now and then.

helluvawreck aka Charles
http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

-- helluvawreck aka Charles, http://woodworkingexpo.wordpress.com

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mitch_56

21 posts in 775 days


#48 posted 07-30-2017 06:21 PM

It’s much, much faster with a jig (such as the Leigh or perhaps any other) than cutting by hand, unless you are Frank Klausz. Even for a single drawer, once you are used to the jig, the jig is much faster than even a skilled hand dovetailer (again, except Frank, who is the exception that proves the rule, imo).

I felt that perhaps a single drawer would be faster by hand, but I was wrong. Check out this video: two editors from a woodworking magazine, in direct competition, one with a jig, one by hand:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp-z2wFqe4E

The guy using the jig finished his every single one of his 4 drawers before the “by hand” guy finished a single drawer. Makes a statement.

And if you are cutting a chest of drawers with 6 drawers, or a kitchen with drawers everywhere? Forget about it, you’ll save tons of time.

Having said that, I’ve never used my jig “in anger”, which I got as a gift. I did a coupla practice sets, and put it away. Too much noise and dust for me, but if you don’t mind dealing with those things, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the method or the results.

View Desert_Woodworker's profile

Desert_Woodworker

1727 posts in 1516 days


#49 posted 07-30-2017 06:34 PM

John, Great progress . If you want heirloom dovetails you will need to cut by hand, for I do not know of any jig or machine that can cut something like this- stay with it.

-- Desert_Woodworker

View JohnnyBoy1981's profile

JohnnyBoy1981

235 posts in 739 days


#50 posted 07-30-2017 06:43 PM

I’ve read that it is a poor craftsman who blames his tools, but after only a few days my $16 pushcut dovetail saw keeps binding mid cut. My $12 marking tool doesn’t make a nice straight scribe across the wood. It’s needle is dull and the device doesn’t stay locked in place. I guess you can’t cheap out on somethings.

I’m going to step away from this for today. I’ll revisit it tomorrow.

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