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View Rustyempire's profile

Adhesion problems! Finish didn't cure properly! Heeelp!

by Rustyempire
posted 07-27-2017 05:25 PM


33 replies so far

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2500 posts in 4435 days


#1 posted 07-27-2017 05:29 PM

photos and specifics would help … brands as well.. many products are not compatible , and concoctions are a definite invitation for disaster .

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4212 days


#2 posted 07-27-2017 05:34 PM

Most if not all film finishes will adhere
well over shellac.

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#3 posted 07-27-2017 05:40 PM

Hey Charles thanks so much for your reply!! I can’t for the for the life of me figure out how to post photos here… sorry about that.

I used equal parts McCloskeys spar, Finico Unpolymerized 100% Tung Oil, and Finico citrus solvent. About 3 coats worth of this in a wipe off and hand buff style finish. Truly a fantastic in the wood finish – just no good for any heavy wear!

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#4 posted 07-27-2017 05:42 PM

Loren: the finish was not over top of shellac. Are you actually saying that shellac will adhere over this finish? Or am I not understanding your reply?

View Manitario's profile

Manitario

2790 posts in 3447 days


#5 posted 07-27-2017 05:58 PM

I don’t have any advice but I’m curious to see what the answer is to this; it doesn’t make sense to me that you couldn’t apply poly over tung oil once the tung oil has cured, that’s basically a wiping varnish with a topcoat of poly. I imagine that the problem probably is the tung oil which is notoriously slow to dry.

-- Sometimes the creative process requires foul language. -- Charles Neil

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4212 days


#6 posted 07-27-2017 06:04 PM

Shellac is often used as a barrier coat
between incompatible finishes. Shellac
will probably cure over what you have
on the wood and from there another
finish can be put over the shellac. I’ve
never used anything but stain and poly
on floors but I haven’t had anything like
the problem you’re having.

That unpolymerized tung oil may be
your culprit. Some of those tung oil
finishes can take a long time to cure.

View 000's profile

000

2859 posts in 1463 days


#7 posted 07-27-2017 06:12 PM

I can’t recommend a fix but I use Bona for any wood floors of mine.

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#8 posted 07-27-2017 06:30 PM

Manitario: So yes it was unpolymerized Tung oil but it’s been over a year so curing isn’t the issue. The oil blend is an in-the-wood finish so is that wherein the problem lies? ( Ie. Total contamination of the wood surface and below surface with oil, resulting in bond failure??) Or am I talking out my **s?!

.. Then I tried to top coat it with Arm-R-seal urethane – was that yet another error? No using poly but a urethane instead?

So the question is what product will adhere to the floor now?... I can go over it again lightly with 120 grit or 80 grit to give it some tooth (the surface is now low sheen and flat but likely still with below grain oil contamination)

Loren: I can pick up a gallon zinsser dewaxed shellac and get that down on the surface if you think that will work. Then would something like varathane oil poly over top be the ticket??

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4212 days


#9 posted 07-27-2017 06:42 PM


Loren: I can pick up a gallon zinsser dewaxed shellac and get that down on the surface if you think that will work. Then would something like varathane oil poly over top be the ticket??

- Rustyempire

Yes. That would be the theory. If I were
you I would do some more research and make
sure my suggested approach makes sense.
The idea is just from information I picked up
from years of reading about woodworking,
not something I’ve personally done.

View Rich's profile

Rich

5001 posts in 1154 days


#10 posted 07-27-2017 06:52 PM


Manitario: So yes it was unpolymerized Tung oil but it s been over a year so curing isn t the issue. The oil blend is an in-the-wood finish so is that wherein the problem lies? ( Ie. Total contamination of the wood surface and below surface with oil, resulting in bond failure??) Or am I talking out my **s?!

- Rustyempire

How did you care for it over the course of the year? Did you use any floor wax that might have contained silicone, or other contaminants?

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Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#11 posted 07-27-2017 06:57 PM

Thanks Rich: Nope. No cleaners just a damp rag when needed. So that can’t be the culprit here.

Oh and I found the link to my post last year when finishing the floor. My first install ever! Herringbone design with border… not bad for a chick huh? Too bad it didn’t need stay looking like that! The picture doesn’t do it justice but the oilf finish is almost luminous. I’d love to try it on a surface that doesn’t get as much wear down the road.

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/180370

View Rich's profile

Rich

5001 posts in 1154 days


#12 posted 07-27-2017 07:02 PM



Thanks Rich: Nope. No cleaners just a damp rag when needed. So that can t be the culprit here.

- Rustyempire

That’s a good thing, then. It sounds like what Loren is saying is a good way to go. I’d try to find an area to test on, rather than doing the whole floor, until you have a method that works.

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#13 posted 07-27-2017 07:09 PM

Yah Rich. It seems that is the only option here from the online traffic response so far.
I guess testing makes sense rather than jumping in with both feet as I am somewhat apt to do! (Finishing ADD perhaps?) & thanks for your much appreciated time today!

View Fred Hargis's profile

Fred Hargis

5838 posts in 3058 days


#14 posted 07-27-2017 08:20 PM

Shellac is a very hard and brittle finish, I’m not sure I would want it between 2 soft finishes on a floor. That said, I’m not sure what the solution would be at this point, you might want to wait for Charles to chime back in. If you do go with the shellac, please do test it first.

-- Our village hasn't lost it's idiot, he was elected to congress.

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4283 posts in 2553 days


#15 posted 07-27-2017 08:43 PM

If it were me, I would “completely” strip the floor and then let it dry. With all the junk that is put on it, I would not put anything else on it. You need to start from the beginning. I am not certain how to do that with all the oils that have soaked into the Wood.

I would never try something new on a big project or any project. Always try a new finish on trial boards. Even if it takes a long time to run a trial, it saves time, money and aggravation later on.

I have never understood why people come up with these schemes for finishing. For your benefit, the person I would trust the most is Charles Neil. I hope that he can help you. I do not think any solution will be quick and easy.

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2453 posts in 2554 days


#16 posted 07-27-2017 08:44 PM

Sounds like the unpolymerized tung oil never cured under the varnish. I would try applying heat, hairdryer, to get the oil and wood warm to get more of the oil to weep out and then wipe off. Not sure of the best solvent for the tung oil. I would not apply anything else over the floor until the weeping stopped. I’m with Fred – I wouldnt use shellac on a floor for the reasons stated. That original oil needs to dry out.

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#17 posted 07-27-2017 09:44 PM

All those points taken!
Yep, I should test first. Especially if trying the shellac prior to poly.
Yep, I shouldn’t have used an oil/varnish blend on a floor (elsewhere yes but not the floor) However I think I did state that at the beginning of the post, so give me some credit there.
And (oil vey!) yep, I’m likely going to have to strip the sodding floor again.. # it
Not what I was hoping to hear, but likely what needs to happen.

The only other option I can think of is reformulating the oil/varnish blend and applying it again (without Spar but regular varnish) and adjusting the original proportions to something with less oil in the mix and more varnish. (My hope was for a easy to repair finish that was in the wood instead of a plastic like surface). I’m guessing that won’t be a popular option for the same reasons as before – it’s not a durable finish.

View Dave Polaschek's profile

Dave Polaschek

4316 posts in 1146 days


#18 posted 07-28-2017 09:19 AM

As Loren says, shellac will stick to the oils, and you will be able to put any finish over that. Might take multiple (thin) coats of shellac, but it’s pretty easy to see if it’s sealed the surface or not. I would use a 2# cut, and expect to need a minimum of three thin coats to seal it up. Maybe start with a 1# cut for the very first coat to get a little better penetration, but you will be there forever trying to seal with anything less than a 2# cut.

It’s not a floor, but my butter dish had similar problems with epoxy not curing over linseed oil (food-safe, no metal driers) and it took multiple coats of shellac to provide a good barrier so I could get a solid epoxy coat down that would cure (I think I did eight coats with a 1# cut and three with a 2# cut, both of platina dewaxed shellac). Not sure what you’ll want to use for your final finish, but once you get a good seal with the shellac, anything will stick to that.

-- Dave - Santa Fe

View Redoak49's profile

Redoak49

4283 posts in 2553 days


#19 posted 07-28-2017 11:19 AM

I really think you need to solve/fix the underlying problem before putting anything more on top.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2500 posts in 4435 days


#20 posted 07-28-2017 12:39 PM

Do i understand that the tung oil has been on the floor for over a year ?

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#21 posted 07-28-2017 01:43 PM

Charles: yes the floor was finished last year.

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#22 posted 07-28-2017 01:56 PM

Dave P: I sooo appreciate you weighing in!

I can wrap my head around putting down a thinned coat of dewaxed shellac – but as an amateur here my likely solution is buying a gallon of zinsser dewaxed. I have no idea about #2 vs #3 cut (?n!!) here. How can I achieve that? By diluting the zinsser with mineral spirits or denatured alcohol? And using what formula?

However if you have a link that would direct this newbie on the procedure to follow (if buying raw shellac flakes) I can make an attempt to mix my own -with some direction on how to do so (ie #2 cut formula? #3 cut formula) these shellac flakes are utterly new and unfamiliar to me… but I’m willing to learn!

View Dave Polaschek's profile

Dave Polaschek

4316 posts in 1146 days


#23 posted 07-28-2017 02:10 PM

A 1# (one-pound) cut is one pound of shellac flakes in a gallon of alcohol. 2# cut is two pounds of flakes in a gallon. Here’s a chart if you have problems with math.

I think Zinsser is a 2# cut so you would dilute it 50-50 with denatured alcohol (not mineral spirits) to make a 1# cut. That will be very thin and will wick into pores and penetrate fairly well. But it’s also thin enough that a second coat will dissolve the first coat a little, so you don’t want to brush back and forth, just brush it on and walk away. And it’ll take a lot of coats to build a surface that will seal.

ShellacShack (that I linked to in my previous post) includes good directions with the flakes (but mixing is pretty easy – grind the flakes if you’re in a hurry, dissolve in alcohol, shake for 15-30 seconds every five minutes until everything is dissolved, then let it sit another 5-10 minutes), and if you call they can help you estimate how much you’ll need to get coverage. My use is all small-scale, so I’m used to thinking in ounces per square-inch, not quarts per square foot (like you’ll need). Sorry.

The nice thing about shellac is that it dries by evaporating the alcohol, so a coat every 15-20 minutes is possible. You should be able to build a surface pretty quickly. And if you decide to remove it, alcohol will pull it up (and clean the brushes).

Good luck! And if Charles has more to say, listen to him. I’m a rookie, and he’s a veteran.

-- Dave - Santa Fe

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2500 posts in 4435 days


#24 posted 07-28-2017 02:30 PM

First of all, ash is deep grained and like a sponge .. so it probably soaked up a lot of the tung oil …and even though a year , i doubt it is really dry.. pure oils just dont cure all that well, especially if pooled in deep grain wood and when they do they are about chewing gum.
If it were me , I would go about getting off as much finish as possible , scrub with mineral spirits, and a scotch bright, if that doesnt work as a last resort ..lacquer thinner … but the fumes will be horrible and its really flammable , so be super careful and lots and lots of ventilation .
another alternative i am thinking about is , once you have as much of the finish off as possible , mix some japan drier (most hardware stores have it ) with some mineral spirits and wet the floor down, let soak a bit and wipe back, give it a few days , hopefully the drier will soak into any remaining tung oil and harden it .

HOWEVER .. before all this , i would again get as much off as possible , then do a test spot using just a wiped on and let soak and wipe off of Arm R Seal.. and see if it will dry , to where you can do a light sand and it will powder.
If so , then you are home free, it should also mingle with any of the tung oil and hopefully harden it as well .
Once you have a hard dry surface then pretty much any good floor finish would work.

I cant stress enough how mixing stuff like this is flirting with disaster, especially using the raw and pure oils … these days they just dont really have a place, there are so many great oils and finishes.. what risk it .

Using a soft finish under a harder one NEVER works…

LET ME ADD … if you can sand the floor as is and it powders, we may be able to go another route ..please advise .

as a reference https://www.walmart.com/ip/WM-Barr-PJD40-Japan-Drier-Additive-1-pt-Can-Liquid/23232844?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1210&adid=22222222227039455984&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=85600790930&wl4=aud-310687321602:pla-193724133410&wl5=9008307&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112353941&wl11=online&wl12=23232844&wl13=&veh=sem

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2453 posts in 2554 days


#25 posted 07-28-2017 04:52 PM

The japan drier mixed with ms is a great idea – get the drying agent mixed with the original oil to get it to dry.

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2500 posts in 4435 days


#26 posted 07-28-2017 04:55 PM

OSU55

Desperate situations call for desperate solutions .. LOL

What has he got to lose …

View 000's profile

000

2859 posts in 1463 days


#27 posted 07-28-2017 05:28 PM


Desperate situations call for desperate solutions .. LOL

What has he got to lose …

- CharlesNeil

What has ”SHE” got to lose … ;)

View CharlesNeil's profile

CharlesNeil

2500 posts in 4435 days


#28 posted 07-28-2017 05:38 PM

noted…sorry

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#29 posted 07-28-2017 05:50 PM

Ha ha Rusty has been called worse Charles!
So I flooded the surface with MS and took the Mirca pad to it and yes, there is a bunch of crud still on there. Even after sanding initially, then washing with solvent, then 1st time MS.

(Can’t seem to upload from photobucket… will try on separate post)

Now this second go with MS and scrubbing shows that yes the surface is still contaminated with Tung oil as suspected. I attempted a video clip with iPad but file to huge to upload. (Will try again with cell phone later as battery is perpetually dead). I also sanded a small test patch quickly with 80 grit and it does powder up nicely.

So I think between a thorough scrub with MS as well as another light sanding I will attempt a test area with #2 or #1 cut shellac as suggested. For ease of use I will just use Zinsser Seal coat diluted as suggested as I’m not keen on getting into the raw material just yet.

I’ve decided to not use the ArmRSeal again as it just doesn’t go down well on a large surface like this very well I found. I’d rather use something that will roll on quickly and keep a wet edge longer than the ArmRSeal does. It’s just not the right product for me it seems, but it might be fine for smaller surfaces.

PS: As I can’t seem to upload the photos you can view some of the images in my project folder
Thanks to everyone for their input so far!! :-)

View Rich's profile

Rich

5001 posts in 1154 days


#30 posted 07-28-2017 07:07 PM

(Can t seem to upload from photobucket… will try on separate post)

- Rustyempire

Photobucket doesn’t support third-party sharing any longer without a stupidly expensive upgrade. You can use the “img” button above the text box here to do it though.

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#31 posted 07-28-2017 07:13 PM

Thank you Rich!
I created acouple new project folders if anyone wants to check out the pix I have for now…

But here’s one showing how much oil still remains on the surface after sanding and wiping down 3 x

I used Charles recommendation to try scrubbing with MS… and you can see how much oil remains! Unbelievable!!
So I’m off to order Japan dryer online immediately…

The floor does sand well at this point surprisingly. This pix show just. A brief sand with 80 grit in the orbital gets what appears to be bare wood. But I know that oil is lurking below the surface, hidden and waiting for the next round …

will post more pix in August – I have company coming next week so everything is on hold for the time being. I need my kitchen back! :-)~

View Aj2's profile

Aj2

2568 posts in 2362 days


#32 posted 07-28-2017 07:31 PM

I don’t like the Shellac suggestion.Because you will have alot of Denatured Alcohol floating in your house.Nope I don’t like that idea at all.
If your trying to fix or refinish your floor while your living in the house then consider all the VOC you will be breathing.
I didn’t read all the posts so hopefully the space your working in is empty.
There are plenty of safe floor finishes that you could have used but since you filled the pores with nasty oils I’m not sure what’s your next move.
If your floor was bare wood I would have suggested Rubio Mono Coat.
It’s a bit pricy but if you have young kids I think it’s worth it.

-- Aj

View Rustyempire's profile

Rustyempire

24 posts in 1178 days


#33 posted 07-28-2017 07:41 PM

Duly noted. I own a respirator and have lots of windows tho. My budget is tight and summer is short so I need a solution that will allow immediate results. Rubio would be great if it was bare wood. It’s not.
And the “nasty” finish I used was pure Tung oil, ultra safe citrus solvent and Spar. I didn’t need a respirator and it went down beautifully. It even smelled fantastic. It just didn’t hold up well in a kitchen. If I had little kids running around I might go another route however, but I don’t.

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