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View Tony Ennis's profile

Diamond stones

by Tony Ennis
posted 07-19-2017 02:37 PM


33 replies so far

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1243 posts in 2355 days


#1 posted 07-19-2017 02:49 PM

Sharpening is hard, at least until you get the trick of it.

I have a dmt 10×4” coarse stone that I use for stuff that needs some aggressive work. I wish I would have gone extra coarse. I went with the 10×4 because it is also great at flattening 8×3 waterstones.

I also have an 8×3 fine dmt stone which I use as the first step in sharpening for normal use. After that I go to an 8k grit Norton waterstone. I actually got the 4k/8k combo, but I rarely use the 4k side.

After that I will strop.

Sharpening supplies.com has pretty good deals from time to time. That is where I got my stuff.

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View jmartel's profile

jmartel

8437 posts in 2510 days


#2 posted 07-19-2017 03:00 PM

Any particular reason you are set on diamond stones? There’s more options that may work better for you. I’ve switched to ceramic water stones and can’t be happier.

-- The quality of one's woodworking is directly related to the amount of flannel worn.

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8637 posts in 2937 days


#3 posted 07-19-2017 03:12 PM

Atoma diamond stones work well for me.

Then I like to use water stones and stropping to get a sharp edge.

Like bbasiaga states “Sharpening is hard, at least until you get the trick of it.”

For me that meant using a sharpening jig:

https://vsctools.com/shop/ultimate-sharpening-jig/

View Loren's profile

Loren

10477 posts in 4008 days


#4 posted 07-19-2017 03:13 PM

Your old diamond stones may be clogged.
Soaking in soapy water and scrubbing
with a nylon brush may restore performance.

View bbasiaga's profile

bbasiaga

1243 posts in 2355 days


#5 posted 07-19-2017 04:20 PM



Atoma diamond stones work well for me.

Then I like to use water stones and stropping to get a sharp edge.

Like bbasiaga states “Sharpening is hard, at least until you get the trick of it.”

For me that meant using a sharpening jig:

https://vsctools.com/shop/ultimate-sharpening-jig/

- waho6o9

Me too. I use the LV jig, and I also have a cheapie jig that works pretty well still. I just got a Japanese style chisel that is tapered in every direction and I can’t get it to sit well in any of the jigs….I’m going to have to figure out how to hand sharpen it. :o

Brian

-- Part of engineering is to know when to put your calculator down and pick up your tools.

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8637 posts in 2937 days


#6 posted 07-19-2017 04:25 PM

Maybe adhere sandpaper to the jig or double sided tape.

View Tony Ennis's profile

Tony Ennis

137 posts in 3496 days


#7 posted 07-19-2017 04:41 PM

Not really, except I would like to avoid a mess.


Any particular reason you are set on diamond stones? There s more options that may work better for you. I ve switched to ceramic water stones and can t be happier.

- jmartel


-- Tony

View JayT's profile

JayT

6159 posts in 2571 days


#8 posted 07-19-2017 04:51 PM

All the sharpening systems work and all have pros and cons, you just need to match your working style to the proper system to take advantage of its benefits and minimize the negatives. If you’ve decided that diamond is the way to go, then have at it. The lack of mess is one good reason to stick with that system, IMHO.

I use EZE-Lap Diamond plates (Coarse, Medium & Extra-Fine) and follow up with a strop and it works well for my space and work flow. I would agree with Loren to first try a good cleaning on your current plates to see if they are just clogged before spending to purchase others. If you do end up needing to purchase, then the 8×3 size is the smallest I would recommend for your stated needs. You could go longer &/or wider if you wish, I just wouldn’t go smaller.

-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5233 posts in 2669 days


#9 posted 07-19-2017 07:17 PM

What Loren said

This video shows it.

https://youtu.be/vXqTPKqM_JY

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View DrDirt's profile

DrDirt

4548 posts in 4102 days


#10 posted 07-19-2017 07:49 PM

Stones can and do wear…
Before I would chuck it…. I would see if there is someone that has a plate that they own that they really like, and would let you try it out… and/or… let them try your stone.

That way you can confirm if it is technique or the stone sucks.;

-- “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” Mark Twain

View MrRon's profile

MrRon

5432 posts in 3603 days


#11 posted 07-20-2017 05:01 PM

Diamond is great for putting a final edge on a blade, but not so good for removing a lot of material. Diamond stones will get clogged with steel bits. When that happens, they stop cutting. Diamond grit is “non-friable”; that is the grit doesn’t wear down like ceramic grit does. When a diamond stone stops working, you have to wash it with soap and water to restore it to sharpening condition.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

631 posts in 1108 days


#12 posted 07-20-2017 06:42 PM

I’ve been using diamond plates for at least 10 years. One thing I like is that they DO remove metal fast, of course you need the proper grit. I use, in order, a medium grit, then an extra fine, then a short session on a Black Arkansas, then strop it. If I just touch up the edge before it gets too dull, I never need the medium grit.

I don’t think a diamond plate clogs like a stone will. I just wipe it with a damp cloth every now and then. When I’m finished I use soap and water on it., dry it, and put it away.

Diamond plates are fast. That’s a real advantage to me. Not messy either. Never need resurfacing. Don’t need to soak em in water. What’s not to like? I hate sharpening, so I want to get to it, do it, and get back to the woodworking.

View OSU55's profile

OSU55

2243 posts in 2349 days


#13 posted 07-20-2017 07:25 PM

Heres my honing process for plane blades and chisels.. Diamond stones are more for creating bevels and maybe the 1st honing step. While a 9u diamond edge will appear and act sharp, it wont last as long as an actual polished edge.

View Kirk650's profile

Kirk650

631 posts in 1108 days


#14 posted 07-20-2017 09:38 PM

Well, we can offer opinions about this forever. I don’t pretend to be the superstar of sharpening, and I sure don’t consider it anything special. I just want sharp tools. There are degrees of what folks want in terms of a sharp edge, and some want all that is possible. I just want a good sharp edge that will hold up under use. I used to labor over sharpening, and I hated it. Then I took a hand tool woodworking course, and they used diamond plates and were back to woodworking very very quickly. I was amazed. I bought what they used and I’ve been happy for years. Only recently have I added the hard black Arkansas stone to my process, then the honing with jeweler’s rouge. It’s pretty fast, and I like the results.

I don’t want to use sandpaper, or a semi-liquid paste, or water stones. I want fast and effective, and diamond plates get me that.

But..that’s just me…

Kirk

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5233 posts in 2669 days


#15 posted 07-20-2017 09:45 PM

The more I read the the more I’m thinking about diamond plates. Any place in particular I should be look for/at these.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View waho6o9's profile

waho6o9

8637 posts in 2937 days


#16 posted 07-21-2017 12:15 AM

View hotbyte's profile

hotbyte

1000 posts in 3335 days


#17 posted 07-21-2017 01:52 AM

I bought a DMT Duo Sharp from SharpeningSupplies.com Andy transaction went smooth.

View Bill Berklich's profile

Bill Berklich

758 posts in 748 days


#18 posted 07-21-2017 04:18 PM

-Diamond stones/plates are Great! I have a set
-Diamond paste is Great! I have a set
-Water stones are Great! I have a set
-Arkansas Oil Stones are Great! I have 3 sets
-Ceramic stones are Great! I have a set
-Granite/Glass & Sand paper is Great! I have 2 sets
And I have a high speed grinder with Medium and Fine Wheels, a Low speed grinder with medium & fine wheels and a waterstone very low speed grinder and I have a really old hand crank grinder (This one’s not so good)

Bottom line is that they all work extremely well once you know what you are doing. They all take work, time, effort, practice to get a good edge. So pick one and start learning

-- Bill - Rochester MI

View CL810's profile

CL810

3923 posts in 3348 days


#19 posted 07-22-2017 12:48 AM

Chis Schwarz is doing a series on his blog about sharpening: https://blog.lostartpress.com/2017/07/21/sharpen-this-part-4-very-small-rocks/

Joel at Tools for Working Wood also has written a series on sharpening. http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/

I think you’ll find Chris’ blog especially timely.

-- "The only limits to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today." - FDR

View CL810's profile

CL810

3923 posts in 3348 days


#20 posted 07-22-2017 12:49 AM

.

-- "The only limits to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today." - FDR

View sawdustdad's profile

sawdustdad

379 posts in 1245 days


#21 posted 07-22-2017 02:55 AM

I only use diamond stones for rough work—repairing a nicked edge for example. A good set of water stones will deliver a very sharp edge, given proper technique. I think learning proper sharpening technique is at least or more important than the stones you use.

-- Murphy's Carpentry Corollary #3: Half of all boards cut to a specific length will be too short.

View HTown's profile

HTown

114 posts in 1546 days


#22 posted 07-22-2017 09:54 AM

I start with the same grades and brand of plates as JayT. Similar to Kirk, I was exposed to it in a woodworking class and I also added an Arkansas black followed by green jeweler’s rouge on a leather strop. No doubt there are a lot of options in sharpening, but I’m pleased with this setup. Very quick and very sharp.
I bought the plates in the class, but also found them competitively priced on Amazon.
Thanks for the tip from Loren.

View Redsoxfan's profile

Redsoxfan

38 posts in 1986 days


#23 posted 07-22-2017 10:24 AM

Recently went from oil stones to diamond, along with veritas grinding jig and new wheels (80 & 150) for my bench grinder. (wolverine jig also for lathe tools)

coarse through xx fine DMT 3×8 stones, with Veritas honing guide (Straight & Cambered).

Like you, was tired of waiting for sharpening service, and the commute back and forth. Also, like you, never attained the results I wanted doing it myself.

After a bit of setup, put an edge on my #8 unattainable to me prior. Very satisfied.

-- Brian, Western MA

View Tony Ennis's profile

Tony Ennis

137 posts in 3496 days


#24 posted 07-22-2017 01:59 PM


Like you, was tired of waiting for sharpening service,...

- Redsoxfan

I just used generally semi-sharp chisels. Then you see guys like Paul Sellers (youtuibe him) and one understands what a craftsman can do with sharp tools.

-- Tony

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5233 posts in 2669 days


#25 posted 07-22-2017 03:32 PM

This is an excerpt from a article

By now you will realize that I have no time left for water stones because of their intrinsic propensity to disintegrate and end up hollow. Using another stone to flatten it depends on that stone being flat. Though it may start out flat, it cannot stay flat, so we have a built in problem all around. Forget water stones and get diamonds. How did that song go? Diamonds are a man’s best friend.” It’s a good idea to progress rapidly to diamond plates and better quality ones such as EZE Lap or DMT.

When it comes to particle size as you rightly say I have used 250, 800 and 1,200. This in fact quite arbitrary really because the particulate fractures and becomes finer as you work the stones. What starts out as coarse 250 ends up being much finer the more I use it. Eventually I replace the coarse because of this. It would actually be hard to say what the particle size is on any stone once they have been used for a few weeks. So, instead of become overtly concerned about grit size I have found course fine and superfine from EZE Lap works well and has worked well for me for over a decade. Nothing more philosophical than that really. I will say that I find 8,000 grit a huge jump and would tend to stay with jumping with the buffing compound rather than diamonds. The finer the grit the greater the propensity to surface clog. You don’t get that with compound and a strop or wood.

He makes it sound like you need to replace the course stone quite often. The Eze-lap course (250) is 100 bucks a pop.

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View Karda's profile

Karda

1485 posts in 914 days


#26 posted 07-22-2017 04:09 PM

are you use diamond brand sharpening stones or diamond plate with real diamonds. I read an article a man wrote, he had a high quality diamond plate for a long time and it wouldn’t do the job. so he bought another. He heard about lubricating with water. He tried it and it worked, he went back to his 17 year old stone and now it works better than ever. Moral before you use a diamond plate wet it a little it will keep it from clogging and wash it off occasionally. My sharpening suck but with a little water the stones do their job, Just my 2 cents

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5233 posts in 2669 days


#27 posted 07-22-2017 04:46 PM


are you use diamond brand sharpening stones or diamond plate with real diamonds. I read an article a man wrote, he had a high quality diamond plate for a long time and it wouldn t do the job. so he bought another. He heard about lubricating with water. He tried it and it worked, he went back to his 17 year old stone and now it works better than ever. Moral before you use a diamond plate wet it a little it will keep it from clogging and wash it off occasionally. My sharpening suck but with a little water the stones do their job, Just my 2 cents

- Karda

I’m not using any diamond stones/plates at this time. I am considering it and just doing my research. Paul Seller who wrote the article I posted the excerpt from has a video. In that video he shows spiriting water on the plates every now and them.

Every thing I have read say the Eze-Lap is an excellent product.
Video here:
https://youtu.be/a6ykVzL2VAM

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

View eflanders's profile

eflanders

326 posts in 2210 days


#28 posted 07-23-2017 12:12 AM

IMHO The Atoma diamond plates are the best. I own other brands (Duo Sharp, Eze Lap) but they really don’t compare well against the Atoma.

View hotbyte's profile

hotbyte

1000 posts in 3335 days


#29 posted 07-23-2017 11:37 AM

Curious, why do you think they are so much better?


IMHO The Atoma diamond plates are the best. I own other brands (Duo Sharp, Eze Lap) but they really don t compare well against the Atoma.

- eflanders


View eflanders's profile

eflanders

326 posts in 2210 days


#30 posted 07-23-2017 03:36 PM

The way they pattern their diamonds cuts more aggressively for one. Two, they have a very consistent coverage over the entire plate. Three, they have lasted much longer.

View hotbyte's profile

hotbyte

1000 posts in 3335 days


#31 posted 07-23-2017 05:05 PM

Thanks!

View Kelly's profile

Kelly

2280 posts in 3304 days


#32 posted 07-24-2017 05:13 AM

Key to your answers is, what you are sharpening. For example:

- For my lathe knives, I use a home built, four wheel, variable speed, reversible grinder (DC industrial sewing machine motor and control running pillow block mounted bearings and shafts. Two of the wheels run CBN wheels, which go and go and go and go, for grinding high speed steel.

- Before the DC motor and CBN wheels, I used my Delta 1” grinder, which can heat things up quickly, so it was an on and off thing with 220 belts.

- My two wheel grinder rarely gets turned on, unless a mower blade needs sharpening. It’s just too fast for fine work.

- For my kitchen knives and expensive pocket knives, I use an Edge Pro. That runs water stones, which I touch up on glass or granite (free) using carbide granules that last a long time and are cheap.

- For quick touch ups, I wander over to my buffer (Redwing two speed beast) and use red rouge or chromium oxide.

- For carving knives, I have a gold compound that works so well, one swipe of a knife across it leaves a black trail of metal on the felt covered wood forms shaped for different blades. Include in that set up leather belts glued to wood.

Critical to using every one of these methods is, repeating the exact same angle on each pass. People talk about muscle memory, but that doesn’t work for those of us who work with a lot of different angles and items needing sharpening (pocket knives, kitchen knives, axes, chisels, carving knives, lathe knives, mower blades, cleavers, . . . ).

To insure the angle establishing a grind for a lathe knife, I use one of the several jigs sold for that purpose. They all but guarantee repeatability. After that, the buffer can sheep you going for a while.

You can also glue some MDF together, make it round, mount it on your drill press, apply buff compounds to dedicated wheels (for a given compound) and touch them up that way.

Of course, you can go the diamond plate route too, but using a jig to repeat passes is still critical, since shifting even one degree can set you back quit a ways.

View AlaskaGuy's profile

AlaskaGuy

5233 posts in 2669 days


#33 posted 07-24-2017 05:55 AM



Key to your answers is, what you are sharpening. For example:

- For my lathe knives, I use a home built, four wheel, variable speed, reversible grinder (DC industrial sewing machine motor and control running pillow block mounted bearings and shafts. Two of the wheels run CBN wheels, which go and go and go and go, for grinding high speed steel.

- Before the DC motor and CBN wheels, I used my Delta 1” grinder, which can heat things up quickly, so it was an on and off thing with 220 belts.

- My two wheel grinder rarely gets turned on, unless a mower blade needs sharpening. It s just too fast for fine work.

- For my kitchen knives and expensive pocket knives, I use an Edge Pro. That runs water stones, which I touch up on glass or granite (free) using carbide granules that last a long time and are cheap.

- For quick touch ups, I wander over to my buffer (Redwing two speed beast) and use red rouge or chromium oxide.

- For carving knives, I have a gold compound that works so well, one swipe of a knife across it leaves a black trail of metal on the felt covered wood forms shaped for different blades. Include in that set up leather belts glued to wood.

Critical to using every one of these methods is, repeating the exact same angle on each pass. People talk about muscle memory, but that doesn t work for those of us who work with a lot of different angles and items needing sharpening (pocket knives, kitchen knives, axes, chisels, carving knives, lathe knives, mower blades, cleavers, . . . ).

To insure the angle establishing a grind for a lathe knife, I use one of the several jigs sold for that purpose. They all but guarantee repeatability. After that, the buffer can sheep you going for a while.

You can also glue some MDF together, make it round, mount it on your drill press, apply buff compounds to dedicated wheels (for a given compound) and touch them up that way.

Of course, you can go the diamond plate route too, but using a jig to repeat passes is still critical, since shifting even one degree can set you back quit a ways.

- Kelly


mostly chisels and plan irons

-- Alaskan's for Global warming!

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